Toddler Bedtime Hell...HELP!!

[Karri]

I've debated asking for help because I just don't know if anyone can shed light on the situation. But we are at our wit's end and need help.

A few months ago, we went through bedtime hell with Aidan and were so desparate that we tried everything. We are anti-CIO and when grasping at any attempt to get him to sleep, we did try the infamous "Jill's Sleep Technique" (from UB). Finally we had success with The No Cry Sleep Solution. It was so great....we got to the point where we would read books in bed, then say goodnight, turn off the light, and leave. Aidan would go to sleep on his own. Then the babies came home from the hospital and all hell broke loose.

We have been trying No Cry stuff again --same as we did last time-- to no avail. Its much worse this time. He just doesnt want to go to bed. We have a bedtime routine.... bathtime, books, then bed. He just WONT go to sleep. Doesnt matter when we put him to bed....7:00 or 9:00. He fights it like mad. It takes almost 2 hours to get him to sleep...AND THAT IS WITH COSLEEPING!!! Doesnt matter if we are sitting next to his bed & rubbing his back or sitting in a chair in his room or standing outside his room he fights it..he wont lay down. And I am not about to try CIO again. It just doesnt work with Aidan. So anyway....he always ends up falling asleep in our bed. Which I could deal with IF he would sleep. But he doesnt. I am not talking about normal tossing & turning. I am talking about not wanting to sleep in the middle of the night. And when I get up to BF the twins, it wakes him up.
I swear, I am ready to lose it.
Any insight into why he's doing this?? How I can get him back to sleeping??

Oh yeah....all his teeth are in, so that isnt the problem.

[Hilary]

Change Aidan to Madelynn and that's us too. It started when Ava was born. I have a feeling it's jealously going on here, but it's getting really old. We put M. to bed last night at 9 and she finally went to sleep at midnight!


Anyway, I'm subscribing for advice too!

[chefkath]

Karri - I'm so sorry to hear what you're going through. I know it's completely normal for a child to go through a phase like this as part of the transition from being only child to older sibling. But of course knowing that doesn't make it any easier.

Having run the gamut of sleeping problems with Brigit, I might be able to offer some helpful advice - but I have a bunch of questions for you. Do you think Aidan is aware of your frustration with the situation? If so, do you feel that he is being deliberate in his actions with the intention of provoking a reaction from you? Or is he just genuinely unable and/or unwilling to fall asleep? Does he recognize when he's sleepy, or does he honestly believe that he is not tired even when he is?

How is he at naptime? Does he have similar issues? How and where does he fall asleep for his nap?

Does he have nightmares or any other fears about sleeping or being alone?

Who usually goes through the bedtime routine with him - you or DH? What are the babies doing during that time?

What happens if he falls asleep in your bed and you transfer him to his? Does he sleep any better in his bed than in yours?

How verbal is he? Can you talk to him about it at all, or is he too little for that?

Oh - also, I have a friend who went through this (for several months) with her 2-year-old son when her daughter was born. I'll ask her about it today and see if she has some advice to pass along!

[Brandi]

Man oh man, am I not looking forward to another baby around. I don't know what to say to you about this since I haven't been through it. I know you don't believe in CIO, as I don't either, but if you get to the point where you want to do it then don't feel bad. You need to stay sane and I don't know how you can with all this going on. I really hope someone gives some good advice on this. Maybe talking with him about it and asking him what he would want to do during his bedtime routine. I don't know. I really have no clue!

Good luck! I'm praying for you!

[sheila]

At least we all have good company in sleep hell!

[Kate]

This is what has worked for us...

The only thing that I have found that works with Cameron is CIO. I bring him upstairs, put him in bed, read a story and cuddle, and then I give him a kiss and say "good night, sweet dreams and dream in color", after I say that he starts to cry "NOOO", but I just get up, shut the light off, and close the door. He cries for about 10 - 15 minutes, and then is asleep. When I go to bed I do open his door so that he can come into our room if he wakes up. I started this last week and he has only woken once in the night.

I am hoping that he will keep this up after Alasdair is born.

[Karri]

Let me first say that CIO doesnt work with Aidan. We tried it twice and the child NEVER quit crying. He was so upset that he made himself throw up. I can't do that to him. Aside from that, he will come out of bed & he can open the door. And I cant traumatize him by locking him in his room, either.

Do you think Aidan is aware of your frustration with the situation?
I think so. Last night he came out whimpering after Chris stormed out, frustrated. Aidan came to me and said "I sorry. Daddy mad"

If so, do you feel that he is being deliberate in his actions with the intention of provoking a reaction from you? Or is he just genuinely unable and/or unwilling to fall asleep?
I really don't think he is doing it deliberately.

Does he recognize when he's sleepy, or does he honestly believe that he is not tired even when he is?
Sometimes he recognizes when he is sleepy. Day or night, he will ask me, "nap?" and grab his blanket. When he was a good sleeper, he was never one to fight sleep too much.

How is he at naptime? Does he have similar issues? How and where does he fall asleep for his nap?
This is probably part of the issue. He naps in our bed, upstairs. I should probably have him nap in his room, but he's always napped better in our bed b/c his room is off the kitchen and I/we putter around and do our stuff when he's napping. Lately, he is starting to fight naptime, but its nowhere near what bedtime is like. I can get him to nap in about 10-15 min.

Does he have nightmares or any other fears about sleeping or being alone?
I dont think so. I havent noticed.

Who usually goes through the bedtime routine with him - you or DH? What are the babies doing during that time?
Chris typically does bedtime because I am typically nursing the baby(ies) at that time.

What happens if he falls asleep in your bed and you transfer him to his? Does he sleep any better in his bed than in yours?
When we werent able to get him to go to sleep w/ us in his room, we started putting him to sleep in our bed and then transferring him. This worked for awhile, but then he started waking up and freaking out when we transferred him. So then we'd just let him sleep with us. And now he's in our bed, and barely sleeping!
I am not sure if he sleeps any better in his own bed. last night Chris transferred him and he woke up and threw a fit. I took him in his room and layed at the foot of his bed and 30 min later, I started slowly creeping out...a process that took another 10 min. He stayed asleep all night in his bed. Its rare we survive the transfer, but when we do its a crapshoot as to whether or not he will spend the night in his bed or if he will wake up between 12-4 and come crawling upstairs into our bed.

How verbal is he? Can you talk to him about it at all, or is he too little for that?
He's not that verbal. He understands a lot of what we say, but he just cant verbalize it yet. I have asked him, "why wont you sleep?" or "do you hurt?" and he usually just gives me a blank stare or says "I sorry"

[Karly]

Karri, my only advice would be to offer him incentives for being good and going to bed like he's supposed to. Does he respond well to incentives? I know if I tell Tyrus he'll get a snack or will get to play basketball if he does XYZ than he's much more likely to cooperate with me.

Is your room big enough to move his bed into it? Perhaps he feels alone and afraid in his bed in his room, but might be more willing to sleep in it if it was closer to you. I know that might not fix the problem of him waking when the twins do, though.

Does he act tired during the day from the lack of sleep at night? If you kept him up later does he begin to act more sleepy ever? I know Tyrus isn't even beginning to be tired at seven or even nine. His bedtime is about 10ish each night, because that's when he starts to get tired.

[Hilary]

Apparently, according to our ped. our kids are trying to test their limits by doing all this stuff at bedtime.

He gave us a handout with these tips. (There is more, but I'm just posting the first little reasons, if you want me to elaborate more I will.)
1. Clarify to your child what a good sleeper does.
2. Start the night with a pleasant bedtime ritual.
3. Establish a rule that you child cannot leave their bedroom at night.
4. Ignore verbal requests. (Ones that are yelled from the bedroom.)
5. Close the bedroom door for screaming. (I know this won't work for you, it doesn't for us either, Madelynn will make herself sick.)
6. Close the bedroom door if they come out of the room.
7. Lock the bedroom door or put up a baracade for repeated coming out! That seems a little harsh to me.
8. If you child comes into your bed at night, return her (or him) to their own bed. (I think this is one of our problems here!)
9. If you child awakens you at night with screaming or demands, visit briefly.
10. Awaken your child at a regular time each morning.
11. Start bedtime later if you want to minimize bedtime crying.

[MelissaM]

I hate to bring this up Karri...but have you thought about cutting out his naps? Like you I am anti-CIO and we tried EVERYTHING with Jacob. Funnily enough, the simplest answer was what worked. He just wasn't tired enough to sleep! We cut out his nap a few weeks ago and bedtime and sleep at night has been a dream compared to what we were going through before.

[Karri]

Noooooo Melissa, Nooooooooooo
Seriously, he gets so tired in the afternoon that I cant imagine that he dosnt need a nap. Though today I am going to try to cut him off at 1 hour. Lets see if that helps, first (i've been limiting them to 2 hrs). If it doesnt, I am willing to try a day w/o naps and see if that helps.
He is fighting bedtime like a banshee. For instance, last night, we started the routine with bath at 7:20. Come 7:45, it was time for books. At 8:00, lights off. He did not fall asleep till 8:58. Can you say frustrated???????
No matter when he goes to bed, he always wakes on his own around the same time...between 6 - 6:30.

[MelissaM]

Well it sounds to me like cutting down on his naps or cutting them out altogether might solve some of your problems....you could also try keeping him up at night until he drops...see if that helps. Although that will be much harder on you than him!

I just know that Jacob was the world's WORST sleeper. and cutting down on and then finally cutting out his nap during the day was the ONE thing that worked wonders.

I hope this works for you!!

[happysmileylady]

When she was little Caiti was a HORRIBLE sleeper. The day she was born, she was awake and screaming from the moment she was born, 4pm until 7am the next morning. The nurses said they had never seen anything like it. We had to cut naps out all together at 18months old because it took four hours to get her to sleep. It didn't matter if she was in the crib, in the bed, in my arms, wherever. The moment she realized it was time to go to sleep she cried and cried and cried. Having a routine actually made it worse because as soon as she realized that it meant bedtime the crying started. The routine actually became the trigger. It lasted until she was around four years old. NOTHING worked. All I could do was survive it. Now, at eight, she goes to bed all on her own by nine thirty. Now I can't wake her back up

The way I survived it was with CIO, but that's because it was a matter of scream in my arms or scream in the crib. She wasn't colicky, that was the only time she screamed like that. Otherwise, she was a fairly quiet baby. It doesn't sound like your problem is the crying so much as the not sleeping. I don't really have any words of advise, just wanted to let you know it does get better.

[chefkath]

Karri, I talked to my friend who had a simliar problem, and we brainstormed a bit for you based on our experiences. I don't know if any of this will help, but here's our thoughts.

1. Do you think that any of this is stemming from the fact that you are occupied with the babies at bedtime and Aidan is just feeling jealous or simply needing more attention from you? If so, is there any way you could be more involved with his bedtime and let DH be with the babies for a little while instead? Maybe you wouldn't have to do the whole routine, but pick part of it that could be your special time together every evening. (Jealousy was a big part of the problem at our house when Ciaran first arrived and Brigit wouldn't go to bed, and we solved it by having Shawn give Ciaran a bottle so that I could do the bedtime routine with Brigit.)

2. Have you tried using any kind of white noise, soft music, etc to soothe him to sleep, or to help keep him asleep? You say it's hard for him to nap in his room because of the noise - could you put the radio on in his room, even just on static, to keep the noise level down? Also, I have no authority on this, but I wonder if consistently having him nap in his room could be important if you want him to sleep in there at night. It kind of makes the statement, "This is where you are supposed to sleep."

3. Or, how about making him a "bed" of his own in your room? This is how my friend solved the problem, in part at least. They co-slept too, but after the baby arrived her son was refusing to sleep, waking up when she nursed, deliberately waking up the entire family in the middle of the night, etc. They put a toddler mattress on the floor next to their bed, and once he fell asleep they'd just move him over from their bed to the mattress. And he started sleeping much better. He got the best of both worlds - his own bed, but the close presence of Mom and Dad. And transferring him was easy, since they only had to move him a couple of feet.

4. I don't know if he'd respond to this, but how about giving him a massage at bedtime? This works amazingly well with Brigit, it's become a regular part of the nighttime routine. I use lavender oil since it's relaxing, and I have even had her fall asleep during the massage! I know some kids are more into touch than others, but it might be worth considering. Also, there are certain things he could eat at bedtime that might help. A glass of warm milk or some chamomile tea can both help induce drowsiness. (We do tea religiously at our house.)

5. I hate to say this, but it might just be something you'll have to wait out. I'm thinking a bit of insomnia might be normal for toddlers - it takes Brigit at least an hour to fall asleep every night, still - at age 2 1/2. And my friend's son has a similarly difficult time falling asleep too - over 6 months after their baby's arrival. My strategy is just this: I don't make a big deal about it, no matter how frustrating it gets. Because if the child feels pressure or guilt, it will just exascerbate the whole situation. (That's a tall order, I know!)

[Karri]

kathleen--
THANK YOU!
I guess I should say that we do use white noise. In our room we've always had a HEPA filter running. So early on, Aidan got used to that noise. So in his room, he has a white noise machine. And we've also tried to get me involved in the bedtime routine (bath and/or bedtime) and it dosent seem to do any good (though I sometimes see it as a nice break from being a feeding machine!)
I am definatley going to try massage and maybe warm milk or tea. Aidan loves for his back to be lightly rubbed, so I think he'd love massage. As far as chamomile tea...do you give it to them lukewarm??

[sheila]

Karri...

This was only a one night try, but we had some moderate success moving Maggie's bath time earlier and then giving her a little time to play afterwards. She went to sleep easier (of course, I should also mention that Stagg laid down with her and promptly passed out after too much to drink, but that's another story ). She seemed to think it was later than it was because she got some playtime after her bath instead of before it. Maybe it would help with Aidan.

[Hilary]

We've started telling Madelynn she'll get a sticker if she goes to sleep right away and it's worked well!

[Nicole]

Addy's not here yet but we are experiencing this problem with Abby so I'm wondering if it's not in part an age thing. She takes FOREVER to fall asleep, we've been doing a night time movie/cuddle in bed and that worked for 3 nights (last night was bad!!) but it seems that she just can't fall asleep. We cuddle, I rub her back, she still takes at least 45 minutes to fall asleep every night, I dread when Addy is here because I don't know how we'll handle it Kathleen's suggestions are great and I'm going to try some of them, I hope something works for you guys soon!!

[jkl]

Just want to say that this is a great thread. my daughter, ally is also 2.5 years old and we started having trouble back in january. when we transferred her to a big bed back in august, the transition went smoothly. but then in january, she would repeatedly get out of her bed and come to get us. then, as much as i didn't want to, I had to start staying w/ her in her room until she fell asleep. Then she started waking (somewhat) in the middle of the night several times and she'd either cry out for us or come into our room into our bed. She doesn't wake up nearly as much anymore ever since I started not using her nightlight. these days, she wakes up once in the middle of the night and comes into our bed. And it does take her a half hour to 45 minutes to fall asleep when we put her to bed.

some add'l questions for you to consider:

1. do you use a nightlight and could the "shadows" be scaring him? I talked to ally about this one and I believe she was afraid of the shadows. when i asked her if she wanted me to turn it off, she said yes and had a big smile on her face when i did. she started sleeping better after that, although it didn't fix all of our problems.

2. ally understands now that if i'm going to stay in her room until she falls asleep, that she has to settle down and "fall asleep".

===
i'm subscribing to this one! I'm going to try some of kathleen's suggestions as well. oh, almost forgot... ally gave up her naps just before she turned 2. she never was a big napper and I was fighting her tooth and nail.

[AahRee]

Wow, these are all GREAT suggestions! We don't have any trouble getting Katie to sleep if we lay down with her, in our bed, but she will NOT fall asleep on her own, or in her own room. We're moving to our new house in less than a month, and would like to introduce her to sleeping in her own room, and going to sleep on her own, at that time. I'm subbing to this thread so I can find it again then!