Do you speak up or bite your tongue...

[AahRee]

when you see books like BabyWise on friends' bookshelves? We just visited our friends and their new baby, who was born on Monday night. They had a copy of Babywise sitting on their kitchen counter, with all of their *home from the hospital* stuff. I'm guessing someone gave it to them, and it freaks me out that that might be the only parenting book they read. :owow: They already know I hate it (we've discussed it before) and when I saw it, I said, *Oh, that book is BAD!* Fortunately, they laughed and said they knew I'd say that. We were on our way out, so I didn't address it with them further, but I did notice them watching the clock a lot with reference to feeding their baby. Since she's only 5.5# or so, I'm really worried that they're going to wind up with a FTT baby because of Babywise. :( I want to say more to them, but I'm sure they're totally overwhelmed as it is, and even well-meaning advice isn't going to be well-received at this point. And as a new parent, I wouldn't want to be inundated with advice when my baby was 4 days old, either.

Soooooo... in my shoes, would you speak up now, wait a while and speak up later, or just consider the fact that they know you hate the book good enough, and leave it alone.

[SarahK]

I would bite my tongue...they know you don't like the book and thus I'm sure they'll ask for your opinion if they want to hear it. (And, for the record, I agree--that book is BAD!!!)

For the record, do you know why they were looking at the clock? We looked at the clock A LOT at the beginning (and still do, to some degree) and it was to make sure Katie was eating AT LEAST every two-three hours...because sometimes she wouldn't show hunger signs and we wanted to make sure she was getting enough food. Looking at the clock doesn't necessarily mean they're limiting her food intake.

I recently received an email from Brian's best friend's wife (got that? :lol: ) who just had a baby eight weeks ago. She told me she read this great book on "baby scheduling" and now she has her son on a great schedule. I bit my tongue and haven't commented. She's the mother, not me...if she had asked for my opinion I would have given it to her...but she didn't ask.

[harmonielyn]

totally butting in here. Whats the book about? Ive never heard of it.

[jstauffer]

I would bite my tongue. I don't like people criticizing my parenting choices, so I wouldn't do it to someone else. Especially a brand new parent.

I have a friend who has her baby on a very exact schedule. It seems kind of strange to me, but it seems to work for them.

[~Andrea~]

I would buy them a book that you've found helpful and give it to them as a gift. Or lend them a few of yours. "just to get a different perspective" I have babywise, and read most of it. Sounded really good IN THEORY. However I never put it into practice and decided to follow my motherly instincts instead. I wouldn't say I'm AP, but I do like quite a few of the AP values.

[Carla]

Luckily I've never had that experience but I would probably bite my tounge (mainly because I'm quiet and don't say much, especially about parenting). I would probably suggest differnt books that I have that lean in a more AP direction.

I overheard someone I didn't know at a prenatal appointment who had her one week old on a schedule already and I was literally biting the insides of my mouth not to say anything. I cried when I left. I dont' know if it was Ezzo or just what she does (not her first child), but it really saddened me.

Babywise is an "Christian" parenting book by someone who is not a doctor that has been discredited. There have been instances of babies who died while parented with this method (mostly due to dehydration and failure to thrive). http://www.ezzo.info has info about this.

[Mandi]

I'd bite my tongue. I know that if I were that mother I'd probably not appreciate it to much. IMO, telling someone, especially a new mother, that she's doing the wrong thing for her child is wrong. Just b/c you chose to AP doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone. It's like telling a FF'ing mother that they should bf'ed, a disposable diapering mother to cloth diaper, etc. I know that you only want what *you* think is best for her baby, but give her some time to figure that out on her own. She'll come to realize what schedule (or lack of :lol: ) is best for her & her baby. And if she comes to you for advice, then by all means offer you opinion without being critical of the choices she's making or has already made. She'll appreciate your friendship so much more I think if you just be there when she asks. :)

[MelissaM]

I think it would depend actually on how good a friend it was. If it was just an acquaintance or a relatively new friend then I would more than likely say nothing OR I would comment on how that book is actually no longer being published by the publisher because so many people have spoken out against those methods...but I would frame it as suprise "Oh my! Where did you get that book?" and then a did-you-know aside "Did you know that Ezzo has been investigated for his views and that that book is no longer published becuase of the backlash??" And then comraderie " well I know that I have a few books at home that are MUCH better than that old thing...my goodness, I wouldn't mind lending you a few!" And then laugh and talk about babies. Simple...yet very well coordinated. :lol:

[MelissaM]

I just want to comment - this is not about AP versus non-AP...this is about common sense versus listening to a man ALREADY slammed by every child rearing expert and pediatrician out there. Ezzo is the freakin' anti-Christ if you ask me...that book should be banned or burned in effigy. :disbelief

But don't tell them that Anne - they might get defensive :lol: :lol:

[AahRee]

I just want to comment - this is not about AP versus non-AP...this is about common sense versus listening to a man ALREADY slammed by every child rearing expert and pediatrician out there. Ezzo is the freakin' anti-Christ if you ask me...that book should be banned or burned in effigy. :disbelief

But don't tell them that Anne - they might get defensive :lol: :lol:

:lol: Exactly. I really don't preach AP to everyone - I promise. (Although, if asked, I'm more than willing to share what I do, and why I feel it works best for us.) But, in general, I *do* bite my tongue with my RL friends. Sometimes it's incredibly painful (like when I had to listen to a 3 month old cry for almost an hour because her mother was training her to cry herself to sleep...), but I don't usually speak up. The reason that Babywise was an exception, in my mind, is that it's not just a *difference in style*. You can be totally un-AP, and still recognize how BAD Babywise can be if followed literally. Even the AAP has said that Babywise is harmful, and should not be followed. But since it has managed to get the reputation for being *Christian*, I'm worried that my friends, in the bleariness of new parenthood, will suspend their usual common sense and follow it. :(

Sarah, you're totally right - they could have been trying to make sure she ate at least every 3 hours. :nod: I hope that's the case. The mom made a comment about not wanting to be a human pacifier and not wanting to let the baby *snack*, which is why I worry a little. But, if the baby becomes FTT, I'm sure their pediatrician will tell them to take her off the schedule and feed on demand. :dunno: I just would hate for it to get there, kwim?

Anyway, I didn't say anything more that day, and don't plan to unless I'm asked, but if they bring up the topic of parenting in our Bible study (something that is pretty likely to happen, I'd guess...) I'm not going to pull any punches about how I feel about that book, and I'll plan to have alternatives ready...

[sabrina]

Just for the record, I am not an AP parent. I don't bf, co-sleep and I do let my children cry for a minute while I go to the bathroom, prepare a bottle etc. And I absolutely dislike the Babywise book. I demand feed even with a bottle. I have in-laws that follow the book and everything is sooooo structured. I dislike the fact that the book has a "Christian" connotation

To answer your question Anne, I would probably bite my tongue. I have to do that with a family here and with my in-laws. However, if I thought that there was a problem that was leading to failure to thrive, I would probably casually mention something or provide some unasked for advice.

[Karri]

I would also bite my tongue in that situation. Now if she starts having problems and comes to you for support/advice, then I would use that moment to say something similar to what Melissa posted.
I wouldnt worry too much about the "human pacifier" comment. I think there are a lot of BF moms who dont want to be a human pacifier.

[AmyJ]

I would say that since she didn't really *ask* you, you only saw the book, I'd bite my tongue. If she asks for your opinion later on then, by all means give it to her.

I think in this area, it is very important to tread lightly, and I say that, not because you wouldn't ,Anne, but because I think most mothers want to do the best for their children and will try most anything. And they will will receive all kinds advice from all different sources that will often be contradictory. It takes so long to find your own path and to learn your baby's cues and signs and what feels right.

I say this because as a person who took the Ezzo's courses for older children and found them mildly helpful, it took me a long time to wonder why I was so hurt and offened that others (meaning society at large, not just peple here) had problems with them. It comes down the the fact that I did gain something from the commraderie of the others in that course and I did learn some good things there, and left all the bad stuff behind. And there was bad stuff. But, basically I felt that MY mothering choices had been somehow been challenged. So, it's probably self sesteem, and most certainly MY issue, but there is my 2 cents for what it is worth.

BTW, this is NOT an endorsement of Babywise as I have NEVER ready it, only done the older GKGW video course, or the Ezzo's I think they are quite radical and off the mark. My parenting style comes from alot of different places and is based on my 2 unique children!!

[MelissaM]

I agree with you Amy...the problem though is that the BabyWise book contradicts what you in fact just said - that you need to look for your baby's signs and cues. That book (and belive me, I use that term lightly) is designed to ensure that parent's IGNORE baby's cues and signs and actually DO NOT have baby's best interests in mind. that is why Anne, like many of us would be in that situation, is so disturbed. Ezzo's techniques for newborns have been reproached and discredited by pretty much every reliable source out there - the very fact that this book is still being published is disturbing, let alone that people are indeed reading it and following its deplorable advice.

[Marcella]

I'd bite my tongue. I know that if I were that mother I'd probably not appreciate it to much. IMO, telling someone, especially a new mother, that she's doing the wrong thing for her child is wrong. Just b/c you chose to AP doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone. It's like telling a FF'ing mother that they should bf'ed, a disposable diapering mother to cloth diaper, etc. I know that you only want what *you* think is best for her baby, but give her some time to figure that out on her own. She'll come to realize what schedule (or lack of :lol: ) is best for her & her baby. And if she comes to you for advice, then by all means offer you opinion without being critical of the choices she's making or has already made. She'll appreciate your friendship so much more I think if you just be there when she asks. :)
Very well said. If she wants your opinion, she'll ask. :)

[Dennis]

but I did notice them watching the clock a lot with reference to feeding their baby.

This isn't necessarily bad. We watched the clock for Joe's feedings because we needed to feed him every 3 hours and he would sleep through feedings the first few weeks.

As for the main question, it's tough. I used to teach Boot Camp for New Dads classes and one time one of the "veteran" dads mentioned Babywise and I wasn't sure if I should say something about it. I decided not to, but I did second-guess myself a lot.

Dennis

[sheila]

A reasonably good friend of mine just told me she was reading Babywise at her baby shower last week. She is due next month. I literally bit my tongue and held my breath a little bit. She said she was also reading some other books.

She had asked me about Babywise one other time a couple months ago, and I had given her a short "I've heard bad things about that book" comment at the time (it was my daughter's birthday party, and I felt an explanation about how I feel about that book was inappropriate). Then I sent her a long email about it with the link Carla mentioned and a whole lot more

I bit my tongue when she told me she was reading it anyway for a couple reasons:
she didn't ask my opinion at the time, and she already knew what I thought, and also... if she does try to do it, I don't want her to feel like she needs to hesitate at all before calling me when/if it starts causing problems.

[mommyLil]

This one would be hard on me but I would bite my tongue. My biggest issue with Ezzo philsphies is that the AAP has recommended against using them. They can be a serious risk to the baby and that would scare me. I did have a friend reading Ezzo and I gave her the Dr. Sears Baby Book, but she blew it off and never read it. I've actually had to stop being friends with her because I couldn't handle the constant comments about how much Nick nurses and how its not good for him to nurse to sleep.

[Jillian]

I've bought dr. sears baby book for people when I've seen/heard that they use/plan to use baby wise. :lol: That is it though, I don't ever actually tell them what I think about their parenting choices.

[AahRee]

Dennis,
I'm glad I didn't say anything, because that turned out to be the case. :) The baby actually lost a lot of weight in her first week of life (down from 5.9 to 5.1), so the lactation consultants are telling them to be more aggressive in waking her up, and to wake her more frequently. They were watching the clock to make sure she ate at least every 3 hours, not to limit her. :) Phew!

I'll double check, but I think they have a copy of The Baby Book. If they don't, I'll pick one up for them today, because we're probably going to see them tonight. And I think I'll just leave it at that, but it will probably require a little more tongue-biting. :lol:

[Dennis]

Anne, that's good news!

[Brandi]

I think you should just buy her another book that you think is good - like the Dr. Sears books. She obviously knows how you feel already. Maybe you could put a little note in there that says something like "You are such a good friend and I don't want to step on your toes because your the mother and it's your decision, but I just wanted to share with you some ideas that seem to work better for us." Hopefully, she'll know that you care and that you are just trying to help. Then, don't ever say anything else about it. You may even want to say "I'll never say anything about it again - just wanted to present you with another option." Or something like that.

Good luck - what a hard thing. I know I've bit my tongue almost all the way off when it comes to how my friends are raising their children!

[jennp]

I'm always one to speak up a bit. Usually I go the "forwarning" route with pg friends, so I've already put in my two cents before they start looking at parenting books. But I'm not one to bash over heads...I'd at least try to be subtle.

In the nursery at church the other day, someone suggested it as I was "moaning" about Logan waking up (understand, I was sleeping through the night with Connor at 2.5 months as Rob gave him 1 night bottle). I just looked at her and calmly said that the book went against almost everything I believed in how to parent an infant...I'm sure she felt a little put off, but I wasn't rude or anything.

Now, ask me how I'm going to deal with my cousin, who thinks she is coming to CA with her son still in his infant carrier carseat at the end of August (he's 26.5 inches long as of two days ago, and I know her carseat tops out at 26 inches!)

[jennp]

Anne...I bit my tongue two nights ago at a preschool board meeting. 2 women who I am acquainted with through my mother purchased Babywise for a pg preschool teacher and were talking about how wonderful it was. I almost fell over (well, I was sitting down, so it wouldn't be that dramatic). I kept my mouth shut...the meeting started just as I had an opening.

[tjham]

I picked up a copy of this at a used book store about 3 1/2 years ago, before my granddaughter was born. (I have 3 grown children.) I decided to read it myself first before recommending it to my son and his girlfriend. I was so disturbed by its ideas, I actually threw it away (and if you knew me, you'd know I would normally donate it to Goodwill!)

Yes, it is out of print, but unfortunately, still on the market! Hopefully, most people who read it can separate the bad advice from the OK advice and not permanently damage their children. But if there ever was a case for book burning this would be it!

Oops, forgot to answer the question. In your position, I would probably bite my tongue, since you already made your opinion known. (Although if it is brought up for discussion in Bible Study, go for it!) Then, if you visit again, maybe drop off another parenting book that you do like. I don't think you need to say alot about it, just "I really liked this book" or "This book really helped me alot". Good Luck!

[Lyoshka]

Ok, I have a couple of questions...Could any of you please highlight some main ideas from Babywise for me? I just want to know for me, so i know if I run across it or ppl getting it... I don't have time to read bad books, but I want to know for common knowledge. I poked around the Ezzo site, but it mainly has a lot of articles about the book's issues......

Let me run smth else by you.. I have a friend with a 2 month old daughter.. one of the things she told me when I visited a couple of weeks ago was that after she BFs Zoey, they wake her up and don't let her sleep right away "so she doesn't associate eating with sleeping". She was saying that a friend gave her this really strict schedule, and that she doesn't do everything on it, but some things she said sounded a bit strict to me... Maybe it's me, but even not letting the baby sleep after she eats seemed like smth I wouldn't do. (am i just a wuss?) Is this like stuff from Babywise?

[Brandi]

Hey Lena - I think that is the kind of stuff you'd find in babywise. If I remember correctly, it's all about getting your baby on YOUR schedule and not letting them manipulate you into their own schedule and not letting them manipulate you into lots of other things too, like holding them to go to sleep, etc.

I don't like it at all. We are very much into AP and both of my kids slept in bed with me. We don't let them CIO or anything like that.

Some of my friends are very non-ap and tell me all the time how I'm letting my kids manipulte me. But hey - I think they are wrong. But, we all do what works for us.

As far as not letting a baby fall asleep after they nurse, well, come on. I think it's ridiculous, especially when there is stuff (whatever it is) in breast milk that induces sleepiness.

[Suzi]

I'm not saying I agree with your friends doing this when baby is still so young but there are many experts who feel it is best for babies to NOT make the association of feeding and sleeping. This will interfere with them learning to sleep on their own. Some experts feel it's best to feed babies when they WAKE as opposed to right before sleeping so that babies can learn more easily to sleep and soothe independently. As for there being something in breast milk that makes babies sleep...my 20+ year lactation consultant/pediatrician would disagree. :dunno: Just my experience...

[Lyoshka]

well, now the topic of biting your tongue or saying smth is real for me, hehehee... I was going to say at first that i would say smth if it were my friend, but now that it concerns me, I guess i don't really know... I do know that Zoe(the baby girl I mentioned) is doing well and thriving... She was like 12 lbs when i saw her last when she was 9 weeks. I will try to find out from Molly what book that was that her friend recommended.

Suzi, I don't disagree about not creating association between sleep and eating... however, it seemed a bit odd to see such a LITTLE baby being woken up and forced to stay awake after she fell asleep... just seemed unnatural to me...

[Brandi]

Suzi - I know that many experts do say that - I just don't agree that it's right for us. BUT, I do think it's probably right for others. It's a choice for all parents. It's interesting that you have heard differently about the breast milk containing something that makes you sleepy. I'll have to investigate.

I'd just like to say that while my kids fell asleep after nursing, they have transitioned from that to falling asleep on their own BEAUTIFULLY! It wasn't a battle at all! When they were ready and I was ready, it all worked so well.

I honestly think that people do this so that they have more freedom and aren't tied down to their children. In the past, moms always stayed home, didn't work, and didn't do all the crazy things that we do these days. Some moms now work, have kids, and go to school, and some do it all while being a single mom! I think there are just too many hats we wear these days. Most moms had a dad helping them at that time (I mean to work for a pay check) and lived closer to their parents so there were grandparents to help out too. It's just really hard for moms these days to do it all.

I guess I wouldn't say anything to that friend Lena. I have a friend who is always telling me how I'm doing things wrong. She's very NON-AP. I'm so sick of her that I avoid her now. SO, if you say something, maybe only do it once and then respect her choices.

[Morgansmom]

Brandi

I read the same as you about breastmilk making babies sleepy. It's the same hormone that is in turkey t-something.