I have been thinking about this for a while and just saw my neighbours outside smoking with their two-year-old girl so decided to finally post.

Like Lissa and her BF campaign opinon, please don't lay any personal attacks on me. This is my opinion and felt that this board was a good place to share.

First let me say that I'm totally against smoking. I think it's a disgusting habit and there are no virtues to it at all. Secondly, let me say that my DH occasionally smokes! :eek: :disbelief Yup, it's true. We've had MANY arguments about it but I know he still does it on occasion. He NEVER smokes in the house and NEVER smokes around me or Joshua.

Anywho, anyone who smokes around their baby or child makes me really upset. There are countless studies showing that smoking around kids causes asthma, increases the likelihood of SIDS and kids have more respitory (sp?) illnesses when around second-hand smoke.

My best friend, who's a nurse, thinks that smoking around kids should be considered child abuse. Extreme? Yes. But, I tend to agree with her. :nod:

I wish I could go up to those neighbours and give them a piece of my mind. But, I probably won't for a variety of reasons.

Thanks for letting me voice my opinion. Any thoughts?

Our neighbors across the street both smoke and have a 2 year old as well. Regardless of the fact that he constantly has that stench, they seem to be oblivious to the harms of secondhand smoke. My DH has made comments to them every once in a while, but it just goes right over their heads :rolleyes:

I dont like when people smoke around their children. Maybe she thought she was doing ok by being outside? The people I know that smoke dont seem to think its a big deal to smoke around children even though we dont smoke and dont want DD around it.

I agree with you all. I don't smoke and I don't like my child aound smoke. When my ex hubby was dating he had a woman who smoked and everytime my daughter would come home she would have asthmatic attack. My dad smokes and he doesn't smoke around any of his grandkids because they all have asthma!

Smoking around children should be considered child abuse. It's absolutely as simple as that. Second hand smoke KILLS. Smoking around children causes ear infections, throat infections, lung problems, asthma, allergies, pnumonia, cancer and even SIDS. Yes, tobacco is addictive, and yes, smoking outside is 100 times better than smoking in the house or even worse smoking in a CAR with children locked up inside...but deliberately exposing children to second hand smoke is not only incredibly stupid, it is NEGLECT.

I agree 100%!!!!! I hate smoking and I do not allow ANYONE to smoke around my daughter. I think it is a nasty disgusting habit. There is a girl that I work with (a Licensed Practical Nurse) who had a really really hard time getting pg. She had fertility treatments and everything. She finally got pg recently and is still having alot of problems. Can you believe she smokes?!! :eek: I was so shocked to see her light up a cigarette. I wanted to say something so bad but I didn't. I hate to see a pg woman smoking. :furious: That definitely should be considered child abuse. That poor helpless baby.

I agree with all of you. And I'd go a step further and say that smoking in a public place, especially in one where other people can't get away from you (i.e. in a crowded bus stop, or in a restaraunt, bar, etc.) should be considered assault. I am extremely sensitive to smoke, and already have bad lungs - why should someone else's nasty habit be allowed to affect MY health? And there are people with MUCH worse lung problems than I have, who are also affected negatively by second hand smoke. What makes a smoker's enjoyment of their cigarette more important than the health of those around them? IMO, it's outrageous that anyone is still allowed to smoke around anyone else who doesn't want them to. If you want to kill yourself in the privacy of your own home - ALONE - then, by all means. But when you start killing those around you, your *right* to smoke becomes secondary to MY right to breathe.

Yep. I'm a little passionate about this subject. :lol:

I smoke occasionally and I agree with you!!! I would never smoke around my son, whether it's indoors or outdoors. I know one of my neighbors just told me she started smoking in the kitchen when she couldn't get outside :rolleyes: . It's terrible! My father was chain smoker while I was growing up and I was plagued with chronic ear infections up until I was a teen. I know his smoking was the cause of them.

Hey Anne...if you ever want to move to Newfoundland I might have a job for you! You and me and Bridget from OUH...we'll be a force to be reckoned with! :woo: :biggrin:

Well, I see I have lots of supporters here. We should start a petition (Canadian AND American :nod: ) and do something about this terrible problem.

I'm with you all 100%!!

I just have a question. How close to a child is too close? When I met DH, he used to smoke. He never smoked in the car with us and never smoked in the apartment, he always went out to the balcony. When he was outside with the door closed, he obviously wasn't "smoking around Caiti" but what about if the door was open? What if he was getting out of the car with a cigarette and we were in the open stairwell? How close is close enough to be considered "smoking around children"?

I too dislike smoking, especially around children. My FIL smokes (unfiltered!), and although he never smokes in the house when my daughter is visiting, their house stinks and I HATE it when K comes home smelling like a cigarette. I've searched for information on the effects of residual smoke. The current research appears to be inconclusive, but I'm thinking this just can't be good. My FIL is a decent person, but between MIL's health issues and his two granddaughters, why on earth can't he work on the cigarette addiction?!

I agree with you 100%. I think smoking is incredibly disgusting and I wont tolerate it. My husband used to smoke and I made him quit before I would live with him. He's had a few relapses, but its never been around me or our child or in the vicinity of our home. And to hide it, the minute he'd get home, he would shower and change his clothes. BUt he's done now, TG. Anyway......if someone were to smoke around my children...even if we were outside....i would say something to them.

I just have a question. How close to a child is too close? When I met DH, he used to smoke. He never smoked in the car with us and never smoked in the apartment, he always went out to the balcony. When he was outside with the door closed, he obviously wasn't "smoking around Caiti" but what about if the door was open? What if he was getting out of the car with a cigarette and we were in the open stairwell? How close is close enough to be considered "smoking around children"?I really don't know to be honest. I do know, however, that any type of second-hand smoke (even breathing the fumes/residual smoke off of someone's shirt!! :eek: ) can be hazardous for children.

I just have a question. How close to a child is too close? When I met DH, he used to smoke. He never smoked in the car with us and never smoked in the apartment, he always went out to the balcony. When he was outside with the door closed, he obviously wasn't "smoking around Caiti" but what about if the door was open? What if he was getting out of the car with a cigarette and we were in the open stairwell? How close is close enough to be considered "smoking around children"?
Kim, if you can smell the smoke from his burning cigarette then he is too close. As well, if he was smoking in the car and then put out the cigarette and you and Catiti immediately got into the car then both of you are still being exposed to about 50 chemicals that have been proven to cause cancer. The chemicals in tobacco smoke linger on surfaces for hours...and while they are there, they are toxic.

Smoking outside is a great way to protect the people in your house, but as a tobacco control advocate I have to tell you - there is NO safe level of exposure to second hand smoke. NONE.

Here is the outline of an interesting study actually (ETS is Environmental Tobacco Smoke or Second Hand Smoke)




Design: Quasi-experiment comparing three types of households with infants: (1) non-smokers who believe they have protected their children from ETS; (2) smokers who believe they have protected their children from ETS; (3) smokers who expose their children to ETS.

Setting: Homes of smokers and non-smokers.

Participants: Smoking and non-smoking mothers and their infants 1 year.

Main outcome measures: ETS contamination as measured by nicotine in household dust, indoor air, and household surfaces. ETS exposure as measured by cotinine levels in infant urine.

Results: ETS contamination and ETS exposure were 5–7 times higher in households of smokers trying to protect their infants by smoking outdoors than in households of non-smokers. ETS contamination and exposure were 3–8 times higher in households of smokers who exposed their infants to ETS by smoking indoors than in households of smokers trying to protect their children by smoking outdoors. Conclusions: Dust and surfaces in homes of smokers are contaminated with ETS. Infants of smokers are at risk of ETS exposure in their homes through dust, surfaces, and air. Smoking outside the home and away from the infant reduces but does not completely protect a smoker's home from ETS contamination and a smoker's infant from ETS exposure.

I am a smoker (I smoke outside and only when my child is not with me). I think everyone needs to understand how hard it is quit, and have a little bit of sympathy. Good for you if you never ever had to deal with tobacco addiction, but it is hard. Though the habit is a disgusting one, and not one that I am proud of, we are still people. I am a considerate smoker and only smoke (on my porch) when there is no one else around. There are a few of us left.

I am a smoker (I smoke outside and only when my child is not with me). I think everyone needs to understand how hard it is quit, and have a little bit of sympathy. Good for you if you never ever had to deal with tobacco addiction, but it is hard. Though the habit is a disgusting one, and not one that I am proud of, we are still people. I am a considerate smoker and only smoke (on my porch) when there is no one else around. There are a few of us left.
Oh believe me...I know how hard it is to quit...I am a smoking cessation counselor - I work EVERY DAY with people who are desperate to quit smoking. It is not an easy road AT ALL. I am also fully aware that there are considerate smokers out there - but you can be as considerate as you like..it doesn't change the fact that by smoking anywhere around children or other people, you are harming them.

I used to smoke when I was in restaurant business. I quit when I found out I was pregnant with Emma and haven't had one since that was more than 2 years ago. I will never pick the habit up again. It was actually really easy for me to quit but that is because I was pregnant. I still feel guilty to this day for smoking while pregnant but I have to relax and know I didn't know I was pregnant (we weren't trying at the time) and as soon as I found out I quit.

I agree it is a awful habit that is hard to quit. But no child should be exposed to second hand smoke.

Smoking around children should be considered child abuse. It's absolutely as simple as that. Second hand smoke KILLS. Smoking around children causes ear infections, throat infections, lung problems, asthma, allergies, pnumonia, cancer and even SIDS. Yes, tobacco is addictive, and yes, smoking outside is 100 times better than smoking in the house or even worse smoking in a CAR with children locked up inside...but deliberately exposing children to second hand smoke is not only incredibly stupid, it is NEGLECT.
WOW! I guess I should be locked up then or someone should call Child Protective Services on me. I bring my daughter over to her grandparents' house at least once a week and they both smoke. I'm CERTAINLY not stupid, I'm eligible for MENSA.

There are certain risks that we all take everyday, crossing the street is one of them, I'm willing to take the risk of visiting my parents so that my daughter can have a relationship with her grandparents.

I'm living proof that not everyone that grows up in a smoking household has problems. My mom even smoked when she was pregnant with me (then again it was the 1970's). I was hardly ever sick, even to this day I'm hardly ever sick. I don't have asthma.

Just so you don't think I'm pro-smoking, I'm not. I'd love for my parents to quit smoking and I think that its wonderful that many states are passing no smoking laws. But what burns me is that people like me are called STUPID and CHILD ABUSERS and I won't stand for that!

Melissa...you can be eligible for the nobel prize for all I care...it doesn't change the fact that smoking around children hurts them. 50,000 children in the US get sick every DAY because they are exposed to second hand smoke....If you were never sick a day in your life then you were one of the few lucky ones. People survived the bomb in Hiroshima...it doesn't mean that nuclear weapons are safe.

It amazes me that if someone told you that your house was full of asbestos that you would immediately move out and have the problem removed - because the cancer risk from a Class A carcinogen like asbestos is too high. Yet tobacco smoke contains a "galaxy" (a word used in tobacco industry documents to describe the content of carcinogens in smoke) of carcinogens exactly the same as asbestos, yet people don't give two hoots about exposing their children or family members to it.

You can be as upset about my stance on this as you want. It doesn't change the reality - or the risk.

Oops...I just went up to bed and realized that I had quoted wrong.

50,000 people in the United States DIE every year from exposure to second hand smoke. 15,000 children are actually hospitalized and almost 100,000 more become sick. All from exposure to second hand smoke. I stand corrected. :)

Melissa this is good to know when I have to tell people I dont want them smoking around DD.

Melissa this is good to know when I have to tell people I dont want them smoking around DD.
Harmonie...I can get you all of the information that you want. God knows...I have a hundred facts about this sitting on my desk at work. If you need any other support - just ask!

Harmonie...I can get you all of the information that you want. God knows...I have a hundred facts about this sitting on my desk at work. If you need any other support - just ask!

:nod: Id like to have that information. I dont have too many problems with anyone trying to smoke around her but Id like to be prepared. SIL and BIL smoke and dont think theres anything wrong with it so I know ill have to cross this road eventually.

WOW! I guess I should be locked up then or someone should call Child Protective Services on me. I bring my daughter over to her grandparents' house at least once a week and they both smoke. I'm CERTAINLY not stupid, I'm eligible for MENSA.

There are certain risks that we all take everyday, crossing the street is one of them, I'm willing to take the risk of visiting my parents so that my daughter can have a relationship with her grandparents.

I'm living proof that not everyone that grows up in a smoking household has problems. My mom even smoked when she was pregnant with me (then again it was the 1970's). I was hardly ever sick, even to this day I'm hardly ever sick. I don't have asthma.

Just so you don't think I'm pro-smoking, I'm not. I'd love for my parents to quit smoking and I think that its wonderful that many states are passing no smoking laws. But what burns me is that people like me are called STUPID and CHILD ABUSERS and I won't stand for that!
While I really don't let my daughter around second hand smoke (DH does smoke but only outside), I tend to agree with your post. I'm very concerned about second hand smoke, but I think calling it "child abuse" is just a bit over the top. I, also, grew up in a household with two smoking parents. Parents who smoked in the house, and even in the car. Fortunately, I am fine... absolutely no health problems whatsoever (that I know of), and I'm rarely sick. My sister and brother are completely healthy. DH, who also grew up in a smoking household, has no health problems. Perhaps we are a few of the lucky ones.. I don't know, but fortunately it seems like there's lots of "lucky ones" out there!

I am in NO way justifying smoking around children. It's absolutely not something I'm in favor of when it comes to my daughter. But, just as you're entitled to your opinions, I'm entitled to mine, and I think "child abuse" is a stretch.

I am another "lucky" one. Both parents smoked and my mom smoked while PG. I will NOT allow my daughter around smoke, ever. I'm not sure I'd call it "abuse", but I think people who smoke around children are SELFISH. I never smoked, but I do understand addiction. I live it everyday. But just because you cannot kick the habit, does not mean you need to do it around other people, especially children.

I used to smoke. I quit the day that I found out I was pregnant with Genevieve. Since then, I've only smoked one cigarette this past June. With that being said, if I were to ever smoke a cigarette again...it probably would be out with friends at a bar, after we've had some drinks. But, not around my kids. Of course, if I ever smoke again and DH finds out, I'm sure he'll be filing for divorce.

The thing that bothers me is when people take their kids into the smoking section of a dining establishment. I'm not sure why but that really rubs me the wrong way.

My dad smokes, and my MIL used to, and FIL and SMIL do too. But, they've never and won't ever smoke around their grand children. Unless, they're outside and their main responsibility is not to be watching the child (you know when there are several of us outside) Like my dad wouldn't go outside to smoke and decide to take G outside with him just to make sure they got quality time in with one another. KWIM?

While I really don't let my daughter around second hand smoke (DH does smoke but only outside), I tend to agree with your post. I'm very concerned about second hand smoke, but I think calling it "child abuse" is just a bit over the top. I, also, grew up in a household with two smoking parents. Parents who smoked in the house, and even in the car. Fortunately, I am fine... absolutely no health problems whatsoever (that I know of), and I'm rarely sick. My sister and brother are completely healthy. DH, who also grew up in a smoking household, has no health problems. Perhaps we are a few of the lucky ones.. I don't know, but fortunately it seems like there's lots of "lucky ones" out there!

I am in NO way justifying smoking around children. It's absolutely not something I'm in favor of when it comes to my daughter. But, just as you're entitled to your opinions, I'm entitled to mine, and I think "child abuse" is a stretch.:) Of COURSE it is over the top and extreme. I am by definition and extremest when it comes to this issue (and a few others too :lol: ). I have even been accused of being a zealot every now and again :) But I don't mind - it's my passion, and in fact, my career.

Smoking around children is quickly becoming societally unacceptable anyway. Many MANY custody cases have now been decided for the NON-smoking parent simply because, in the eyes of the law, the parent who smokes around a child does not provide a safe environment for the child. So custody is given to the parent who does not smoke. THAT in itself, should be an indication of where society is headed with this issue.

And about the "My parent's smoked around me and I've never been sick a day in my life" argument:

1. Second hand smoke doesn't ONLY cause lung problems or life threatening illnesses in children, it also causes ear infections, throat infections, cough, exacerbates the common cold - you name it and I can almost gurantee that SHS either caused it or made it alot worse. I find it very difficult to believe that as an adult you can remember every time you had an ear infection, a sore throat or a cough as a infant, toddler or preschooler. I know *I* can't...and neither can my parents...it's been a long while since I was little.

2. My mother fed me Carnation milk as an infant. Condensed milk that you put in your coffee. It was cheap and heavy and it was milk, so they used it - and I have never been sick either. Does that now mean that we should now be saying to people "yes...it's ok to give your infants Carnation milk as a primary food source. If it worked for me it'll work for you!" Absolutley not. In fact, I would hazard a guess that if your physician found out that you were using Carnation milk to feed a three week old, Child Protective Services would be knocking on your door within hours.

Same thing goes with infant car seats. Our parents NEVER used them...we were held in peoples arms as infants and as toddlers we could roam free in the car. By your argument about exposing kids to SHS, then because I was never in a car seat and never hurt in a car then our kids should ALSO be allowed to not be in car seats. Right?? However, again, I can honestly say that if we consistently saw parents who never buckled their kids in when they were driving, we would be very tempted to call the Police.

My point? Just because it worked for our parents, and because WE survived it...does NOT make it right and most certainly does not make it safe...or even smart.

:) Of COURSE it is over the top and extreme. I am by definition and extremest when it comes to this issue (and a few others too :lol: ). I have even been accused of being a zealot every now and again :) But I don't mind - it's my passion, and in fact, my career.

Smoking around children is quickly becoming societally unacceptable anyway. Many MANY custody cases have now been decided for the NON-smoking parent simply because, in the eyes of the law, the parent who smokes around a child does not provide a safe environment for the child. So custody is given to the parent who does not smoke. THAT in itself, should be an indication of where society is headed with this issue.

And about the "My parent's smoked around me and I've never been sick a day in my life" argument:

1. Second hand smoke doesn't ONLY cause lung problems or life threatening illnesses in children, it also causes ear infections, throat infections, cough, exacerbates the common cold - you name it and I can almost gurantee that SHS either caused it or made it alot worse. I find it very difficult to believe that as an adult you can remember every time you had an ear infection, a sore throat or a cough as a infant, toddler or preschooler. I know *I* can't...and neither can my parents...it's been a long while since I was little.

2. My mother fed me Carnation milk as an infant. Condensed milk that you put in your coffee. It was cheap and heavy and it was milk, so they used it - and I have never been sick either. Does that now mean that we should now be saying to people "yes...it's ok to give your infants Carnation milk as a primary food source. If it worked for me it'll work for you!" Absolutley not. In fact, I would hazard a guess that if your physician found out that you were using Carnation milk to feed a three week old, Child Protective Services would be knocking on your door within hours.

Same thing goes with infant car seats. Our parents NEVER used them...we were held in peoples arms as infants and as toddlers we could roam free in the car. By your argument about exposing kids to SHS, then because I was never in a car seat and never hurt in a car then our kids should ALSO be allowed to not be in car seats. Right?? However, again, I can honestly say that if we consistently saw parents who never buckled their kids in when they were driving, we would be very tempted to call the Police.

My point? Just because it worked for our parents, and because WE survived it...does NOT make it right and most certainly does not make it safe...or even smart.
Please show me where in my post (since you quoted me) I said that smoking around children is "safe" or "smart" or "right". :scratch:

In fact, I think I stated that I do NOT expose my daughter to SHS. (or atleast to the degree that I can avoid it). My DH smokes (how I wish he'd quit!), but he ONLY smokes outside, never in the car, never in the house, and never around me or our daughter. If I'm out somewhere and there's somebody smoking, I'll do my best to remove myself and my daughter from the situation.

My point was... I agree it's not right and it's unsafe. "Child abuse" I think is a stretch.

I am another "lucky" one. Both parents smoked and my mom smoked while PG. I will NOT allow my daughter around smoke, ever. I'm not sure I'd call it "abuse", but I think people who smoke around children are SELFISH. I never smoked, but I do understand addiction. I live it everyday. But just because you cannot kick the habit, does not mean you need to do it around other people, especially children.
I agree with you completely, and you stated this much better than I did. I think it's selfish, no doubt. I think that people who smoke need to take others (not just children, but ALL people) into consideration and think twice about who is around before they light up. Selfish, YES... abuse, I just don't think so.

But it looks like we're in the minority here! :lol:

I agree with you completely, and you stated this much better than I did. I think it's selfish, no doubt. I think that people who smoke need to take others (not just children, but ALL people) into consideration and think twice about who is around before they light up. Selfish, YES... abuse, I just don't think so.

But it looks like we're in the minority here! :lol:
I am not totally sure that it's NOT abuse either. I think smoking in the car or in enclosed areas with children borders on abuse, or maybe neglect. I mean if I knowingly fed my child paint chips containing lead, wouldn't that be considered abuse? Or if I knowingly fed my child some other carcinogen (sp?) would that not be consodered abuse? I guess I am just not sure where to draw the line between abuse and poor parenting. Personally I'd love to see a law passed making it illegal to smoke around children. I'd be even happier to see a law passed banning smoking in ANY public place, indoor or outside. But I don't know that I will ever see that happen.

I am in NO way justifying smoking around children. It's absolutely not something I'm in favor of when it comes to my daughter. But, just as you're entitled to your opinions, I'm entitled to mine, and I think "child abuse" is a stretch.
I completely agree. Its rediculous to call people names such as stupid, child abuser and child neglecter on this subject. If you REALLY feel strongly enough that those who expose their children to second hand smoke are child abusers, I hope you have reported them to their state's Department of Children's Services or Child Protective Services.

I am not totally sure that it's NOT abuse either. I think smoking in the car or in enclosed areas with children borders on abuse, or maybe neglect. I mean if I knowingly fed my child paint chips containing lead, wouldn't that be considered abuse? Or if I knowingly fed my child some other carcinogen (sp?) would that not be consodered abuse? I guess I am just not sure where to draw the line between abuse and poor parenting. Personally I'd love to see a law passed making it illegal to smoke around children. I'd be even happier to see a law passed banning smoking in ANY public place, indoor or outside. But I don't know that I will ever see that happen.
Actually, these are excellent points. :nod: Smoking in a car with children with shut windows (or any other tiny areas with no ventilation) is absolutely unacceptable, and may be considered abusive in my mind (I need to ponder it a bit more). Basically, the children can't get away, the smoke spreads quickly and aggressively, and this is just wrong, wrong, wrong. Just as is feeding a child a carcinogen, or smoking in a closed area and blowing smoke directly in their face.

I just don't know... smoking in well-ventilated areas is different, in my mind. NOT necessarily 'ok', but definitely different than smoking in closed areas, OR in areas in which I can (and do) remove my child. As a parent, if I'm out with my daughter somewhere, I can (most of the time) remove her from any potentially dangerous situations (such as people smoking nearby). I know many people are of the mindset that I "shouldn't have to" (meaning that people shouldn't be smoking in public areas to begin with), but that aside, I am able to walk out or whatever to remove her from the situation. Smoking in a closed car or feeding her paint chips or other situations in which she wouldn't be able to escape are very different (in my mind) than SHS in a well-ventilated area, which I have the ability to decide whether it's risky enough to me that I need to protect her by removing her from the situation.

I completely agree. Its rediculous to call people names such as stupid, child abuser and child neglecter on this subject. If you REALLY feel strongly enough that those who expose their children to second hand smoke are child abusers, I hope you have reported them to their state's Department of Children's Services or Child Protective Services.
Actually I spend a good amount of my time lobbying the Provincial and Federal governments to do MORE to protect children from second hand smoke. Eventually, we WILL make it against the law to smoke around children in any setting. I also help people who are looking for research for custody cases...and on the flip side - I counsel smokers who want to quit smoking and help guide them through the process.

Actually, these are excellent points. :nod: Smoking in a car with children with shut windows (or any other tiny areas with no ventilation) is absolutely unacceptable, and may be considered abusive in my mind (I need to ponder it a bit more). Basically, the children can't get away, the smoke spreads quickly and aggressively, and this is just wrong, wrong, wrong. Just as is feeding a child a carcinogen, or smoking in a closed area and blowing smoke directly in their face.

I just don't know... smoking in well-ventilated areas is different, in my mind. NOT necessarily 'ok', but definitely different than smoking in closed areas, OR in areas in which I can (and do) remove my child. As a parent, if I'm out with my daughter somewhere, I can (most of the time) remove her from any potentially dangerous situations (such as people smoking nearby). I know many people are of the mindset that I "shouldn't have to" (meaning that people shouldn't be smoking in public areas to begin with), but that aside, I am able to walk out or whatever to remove her from the situation. Smoking in a closed car or feeding her paint chips or other situations in which she wouldn't be able to escape are very different (in my mind) than SHS in a well-ventilated area, which I have the ability to decide whether it's risky enough to me that I need to protect her by removing her from the situation.
Oh my - of COURSE! But this thread is about parents who smoke around their children. Who knowingly and willingly expose their children to second hand smoke daily without any thought to the consequences. I have NEVER said that bringing your child into an area where smoking is allowed is abuse. I HAVE stated that PARENTS who smoke around their children should be considered to be abusing that child.

And speaking of ventilation...there is NO SUCH THING as ventilation in an enclosed space that works. Ventilation systems are great at getting rid of the sight and the smell of cigarette smoke, but they can not remove the poison from the air because the particles are too small and they rush right through the system. In fact, the American Society of Heating, Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Engineers (ASHRAE), the world's leading ventilation standard-setting organization no longer provides standards for air with tobacco smoke in it - only smoke free air. This is because there is no safe level of tobacco smoke in the air and ventilation systems are not effective in removing it.

I think my child's right to breathe superseeds anyone's right to smoke in a public place. I'm glad you cannot smoke in the stands of an open baseball stadium or in an airplane. I'm glad that some businesses have no smoking zones around their front doors. I'm glad that laws are starting to be passed that prohibit smoking within X feet of the entrance of a store/mall. DH and I had this argument the other day - he says I should just take Rebekah to a different mall entrance if there are people smoking at one of them. I say I shouldn't have to go out of my way to accomodate someone's smoking habit.

I also think that any parent or grandparent who is not willing to provide a smoke-free environment for a child is extremely selfish and neglectful. I often refused to visit my grandmother because she smoked inside her home and I couldn't stand it. She refused to come visit the first house I bought because I told her she was not allowed to smoke inside while visiting. She finally quit, after she had her stroke and couldn't get herself outside at the rehab center to smoke. And guess what....she just died of lung cancer, a specific kind directly caused by smoking. And, yes, I'm very angry at her for that.

It's hard to quit...but it can be done. DH smoked more than a pack a day for 15 years....15 YEARS....and he quit because we were talking about having a baby. Yes, it was hard. But he did it. And I believe everyone else CAN do it, too. So, if a parent doesn't quit, then I do think they are borderline abusive. Their addiction is more important than their child's health and I think that's sad.

Please show me where in my post (since you quoted me) I said that smoking around children is "safe" or "smart" or "right". :scratch:


Oh no...I am sorry that was my fault. I wasn't saying that you said that at all...it was late and I was looking at the fact that you said it was extreme...and I was too lazy to quote that one line and I just quoted the whole post :lol: Then I got on a roll about the topic again...it had nothing to do with you - I should have made it two seperate posts. Sorry!

I completely agree. Its rediculous to call people names such as stupid, child abuser and child neglecter on this subject. If you REALLY feel strongly enough that those who expose their children to second hand smoke are child abusers, I hope you have reported them to their state's Department of Children's Services or Child Protective Services.OK...let's think about it this way:

Lets say that everytime you took your children home (for example!) there was a rule - before you leave this house after your visit you have to drink a glass filled with arsenic, carbon monoxide, formaldehyde and ammonia. Now, it doesn't matter who you are or how old you are, if you enter this house you MUST drink what is in that glass before you leave. We'll put it in the baby's bottle too, cause if you enter through that door you have to drink. You have NO CHOICE. The levels of poison in the glass are very very small...keeping the poison together is dirty bath water...there is much more dirty bath water than poison, so the posion won't really affect you too too much.

Now DRINK WHAT IS IN THAT GLASS!!!

Extreme example? Foolish example? Not at all. Now - would you think that that situation was abusive? A parent forcing their child to drink that glass of poison every single day as long as they live in the house?

Parents who smoke around their children are doing just that. They are infecting the air that their children breathe and they are forcing them to ingest poison. I am sure that no one here is going to argue with me that SHS contains poison, but you argue that it is not fundamentally wrong and unecessary and just downright dumb to expose your children to it????

Oh my - of COURSE! But this thread is about parents who smoke around their children. Who knowingly and willingly expose their children to second hand smoke daily without any thought to the consequences.
Yes, I agree this was the intent of the thread, but it has kinda taken a different twist, from "smoking while parenting" is bad, to "smoking anywhere around children is bad" to "allowing others to smoke around your children" is bad. As evidenced by one of your first comments

Smoking around children should be considered child abuse. It's absolutely as simple as that.
Perhaps you meant to say that "smoking around your own children should be considered child abuse", I don't know, but that's not what was stated.

So, what do you think about parents who "bring their children into an area where smoking is allowed"? You are saying this isn't abuse? Just wrong, but not abusive? I'm honestly just trying to understand your stance, and why it would (in your opinion) be abusive to smoke daily around your children, but not abusive to bring them into areas where others are smoking around them (and allow others to "abuse" your child)?

As someone who DETESTS smoking, I'm finding it kinda ironic that I'm on this side of the debate. :lol: Actually, I really think I'm agreeing with you more than anything, smoking around children is wrong. It's the "abuse" word that I take issue with.

Melissa - on a different note, what the heck can I do to get my DH to stop smoking?! :lol:

I added the :lol: since I know that I really can't do anything but support him, and that he needs to be ready.. but it's getting really old!

Yes, I agree this was the intent of the thread, but it has kinda taken a different twist, from "smoking while parenting" is bad, to "smoking anywhere around children is bad" to "allowing others to smoke around your children" is bad. As evidenced by one of your first comments


Perhaps you meant to say that "smoking around your own children should be considered child abuse", I don't know, but that's not what was stated.

So, what do you think about parents who "bring their children into an area where smoking is allowed"? You are saying this isn't abuse? Just wrong, but not abusive? I'm honestly just trying to understand your stance, and why it would (in your opinion) be abusive to smoke daily around your children, but not abusive to bring them into areas where others are smoking around them (and allow others to "abuse" your child)?

As someone who DETESTS smoking, I'm finding it kinda ironic that I'm on this side of the debate. :lol: Actually, I really think I'm agreeing with you more than anything, smoking around children is wrong. It's the "abuse" word that I take issue with.I agree...I should have said "own" I thought that what was the thread was about - parents smoking around kids...so I just kept to the topic. I really didn;t think that it would be generalized...I have to be more careful with my precision of language it seems :lol:

Exposing your children to second hand smoke ON A REGULAR BASIS is where I would draw the line between abuse and just "wrong" One random exposure in a restaurant is barely avoidable if you don't have strict anti-smoking laws where you live, so sometimes exposing your children for small periods of time and not on a regular basis is a "what can you do?" kinda thing. Especially with smoking still being allowed in many public places.

Regular, consistent exposure by parents, friends or family is what is abusive in my mind.

Melissa - on a different note, what the heck can I do to get my DH to stop smoking?! :lol:

I added the :lol: since I know that I really can't do anything but support him, and that he needs to be ready.. but it's getting really old!
PM me your address...I can send you some information in the mail if you like. When he IS ready...he can also call me on the Smoker's Help Line - I'll get him a plan! :biggrin:

I agree...I should have said "own" I thought that what was the thread was about - parents smoking around kids...so I just kept to the topic. I really didn;t think that it would be generalized...I have to be more careful with my precision of language it seems :lol:
Sorry. :lol: I guess I was just seeing how this thread was turning more into "smoking in general around children" is bad and I was reading all posts that way.

Exposing your children to second hand smoke ON A REGULAR BASIS is where I would draw the line between abuse and just "wrong" One random exposure in a restaurant is barely avoidable if you don't have strict anti-smoking laws where you live, so sometimes exposing your children for small periods of time and not on a regular basis is a "what can you do?" kinda thing. Especially with smoking still being allowed in many public places.

Regular, consistent exposure by parents, friends or family is what is abusive in my mind.
OK, this makes sense to me. I still struggle with "abuse", but I get what you're saying. :nod:

OK...let's think about it this way:

Lets say that everytime you took your children home (for example!) there was a rule - before you leave this house after your visit you have to drink a glass filled with arsenic, carbon monoxide, formaldehyde and ammonia. Now, it doesn't matter who you are or how old you are, if you enter this house you MUST drink what is in that glass before you leave. We'll put it in the baby's bottle too, cause if you enter through that door you have to drink. You have NO CHOICE. The levels of poison in the glass are very very small...keeping the poison together is dirty bath water...there is much more dirty bath water than poison, so the posion won't really affect you too too much.

Now DRINK WHAT IS IN THAT GLASS!!!

Extreme example? Foolish example? Not at all. Now - would you think that that situation was abusive? A parent forcing their child to drink that glass of poison every single day as long as they live in the house?

Parents who smoke around their children are doing just that. They are infecting the air that their children breathe and they are forcing them to ingest poison. I am sure that no one here is going to argue with me that SHS contains poison, but you argue that it is not fundamentally wrong and unecessary and just downright dumb to expose your children to it????
Why are you quoting me for this? :scratch: In many ways I DO agree with you! However, I don't go to the extreme! I was questioning if you called CPS or DCF on people who smoked around their children. I wanted to make sure that if you hold this view that you follow through on how it is abuse by REPORTING that abuse.

I absolutely think that smoking is bad, I think anyone would be hard pressed to find someone who thinks there are any benefits to smoking.

As someone who DETESTS smoking, I'm finding it kinda ironic that I'm on this side of the debate. :lol: Actually, I really think I'm agreeing with you more than anything, smoking around children is wrong. It's the "abuse" word that I take issue with.
Unfortunately extremists tend to push those that would normally be on their side to the center or to the opposition because of how extreme and rigid their views are. It happens in every issue where there is opposition.

I really have to change the way I quote things...I seem to be making alot of quoting mistakes today :lol:

In actual fact Melissa, you are the one who said that you expose your kids to smoke and you are not dumb...I believe you mentioned MENSA or something? MY point was simply to make you look at what you said in a different light.

Oh...and I think on THIS particular issue...I am PROUD to be extremest.

Melissa - on a different note, what the heck can I do to get my DH to stop smoking?! :lol:

I added the :lol: since I know that I really can't do anything but support him, and that he needs to be ready.. but it's getting really old
DITTO

Sandy

DITTO

Sandy
PM me your address if you like Sandy...I can send you some info in the mail...you can "accidentally" leave it hanging around the house :lol:

Hey Anne...if you ever want to move to Newfoundland I might have a job for you! You and me and Bridget from OUH...we'll be a force to be reckoned with! :woo: :biggrin::lol: I just saw this, Melissa, and you're right - we would be! :woo:

BTW... I read through this thread for the first time since I posted before, and although there are strong differing opinions, I think it is great that everyone is being respectful of one another. :)

Melissa, I'm with you 100%. I believe that intentionally exposing children (or anyone else) to second hand smoke is abusive and assaultive. Fortunately, I don't know anyone who does that IRL. None of our friends and family members smoke (although some used to and have now quit.) However, even if I did, I wouldn't be able to report them to CPS, because smoking is not currently considered child abuse in our state. I'd like to see that changed, and I'd like to see smoking in public places (indoors and out) outlawed as well.

My original post said that people take risks everyday. There are certain risks that I'm willing to take, one of them is to visit my parents once a week for a few hours. Yes that exposes my child and myself to SHS. But, I'd much rather have my daughter have a good relationship with her grandparents than try to keep them away from her because of smoking.

If you would like to quote statistics, here are some more.

http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

In 2002, there were an estimated 6,316,000 car accidents in the USA. There were about 2.9 million injuries and 42,815 people were killed in auto accidents in 2002.

Would anyone call a parent who drives a child around a child abuser or stupid? I think not, even though the statistics show that being in a car is far more dangerous than being around SHS.

In 2001 there were 101,537 deaths due to Unintentional (Accidental) Injuries, whether the person was a pedestrian struck by a car, drowned, or fell. I got this from "Odds of dying." http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

If you say, "well its easy to avoid SHS, just don't be around it." Fine, but I can also avoid getting into a car or walking outside. If I tried to avoid every possible way where I could die, life would be pretty boring and you know what? I'd die anyway.

My original post said that people take risks everyday. There are certain risks that I'm willing to take, one of them is to visit my parents once a week for a few hours. Yes that exposes my child and myself to SHS. But, I'd much rather have my daughter have a good relationship with her grandparents than try to keep them away from her because of smoking.
I think that if a relationship with your child is that important to them, they should choose not to smoke around your child. I would risk the relationship to protect my daughter from SHS. In my opinion, anyone who refuses to keep a smoke-free atmosphere around my child is SELFISH. That's all there is to it. If my parents still smoked, then I would make them come to my house. If they decided that smoking was more important than a relationship with their grandchild, then so be it. That is *their* choice. I doubt most grandparents would choose smoking over their grandchild if they were forced to choose.


If you would like to quote statistics, here are some more.

http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/stats.html

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Would anyone call a parent who drives a child around a child abuser or stupid? I think not, even though the statistics show that being in a car is far more dangerous than being around SHS.

In 2001 there were 101,537 deaths due to Unintentional (Accidental) Injuries, whether the person was a pedestrian struck by a car, drowned, or fell. I got this from "Odds of dying." http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

If you say, "well its easy to avoid SHS, just don't be around it." Fine, but I can also avoid getting into a car or walking outside. If I tried to avoid every possible way where I could die, life would be pretty boring and you know what? I'd die anyway.

I don't think that is a fair comparison. When you take a child in a car, you put them in a saftey seat or a seatbelt. You take all precautions to keep them safe. To make your comparison valid you would have to let them roam free in the vehicle and drive drunk in the rain. Sure, you may be lucky and get them home safely (like your child MIGHT not suffer effects from SHS), but you are taking a awful chance that they could be killed or injured. More people may be hurt in car accidents, but in comparison to how many people drive every day, I am willing to be the percentages are way lower. You can't say 100 people smoke and only 50 die or are injured. 100,000 people drive and 75 die or are injured. It's not a fair comparison. Yes I made up these numbers because I am too lazy to look up the research. But y ou cannot compare apples to oranges.

I can see your point Melissa...but there is a fundamental flaw there.

See death and disease from smoking is PREVENTABLE death...second hand smoke is actually the third leading cause of preventable death, ranking only behind smoking itself and alcohol.

To use your example of car accidents - when you get into a car with a child you do all that you can to ensure that that child is safe right? You make sure that you are buckled in that the child is in a car seat or secured in a seat belt, you drive on the right side of the road, hopefully obeying all traffic rules and doing everything you can, as a parent, to make sure that the child and you, remain safe for the drive. That is your RESPONSIBILITY as a parent. Sure there are many out there who are irresposible drivers, but I think we can all agree that if a parent drives around drunk (for example) with a child in the car then they will be accused of endangerment and neglect.

It is the same with exposing your child to second hand smoke. The difference being that you can get into a car with a child and you can drive responsibly and do all that you can to make sure that your child is safe. It is physically impossible though to expose your child to SHS responsibly. Children need to breathe....by forcing them to breathe poison through the air, I believe that you are not protecting them adequately.

I think a more appropriate statistic for you to find would be - how many CHILDREN die or are injured in car accidents specifically caused by their own parents. Then we can have a discussion based on equal scenarios.

Here is the outline of an interesting study actually (ETS is Environmental Tobacco Smoke or Second Hand Smoke)




Design: Quasi-experiment comparing three types of households with infants: (1) non-smokers who believe they have protected their children from ETS; (2) smokers who believe they have protected their children from ETS; (3) smokers who expose their children to ETS.

Setting: Homes of smokers and non-smokers.

Participants: Smoking and non-smoking mothers and their infants 1 year.

Main outcome measures: ETS contamination as measured by nicotine in household dust, indoor air, and household surfaces. ETS exposure as measured by cotinine levels in infant urine.

Results: ETS contamination and ETS exposure were 5–7 times higher in households of smokers trying to protect their infants by smoking outdoors than in households of non-smokers. ETS contamination and exposure were 3–8 times higher in households of smokers who exposed their infants to ETS by smoking indoors than in households of smokers trying to protect their children by smoking outdoors. Conclusions: Dust and surfaces in homes of smokers are contaminated with ETS. Infants of smokers are at risk of ETS exposure in their homes through dust, surfaces, and air. Smoking outside the home and away from the infant reduces but does not completely protect a smoker's home from ETS contamination and a smoker's infant from ETS exposure.

I'm glad you posted this. Who or what is the source of this info., if you don't mind?

I wish I could do something about FIL's smoking. When my niece learned about the harmful effects of smoking in school a few years ago, she begged him to stop. I have actually been told not to discuss FIL's smoking because "it's his one pleasure and he has no intentions of quitting." :(

I don't mind at all! Here is the link to the actual new release, so there is more information here

http://www.nature.com/nsu/040223/040223-3.html

The study was conducted by a team of researchers at San Deigo State University and was led by Dr. Georg Matt

Thanks. :)

Melissa, have you started any official petitions or such to ban people from smoking around children? If so, I would be interested in starting one for Toronto.

It is so encouraging to see people interested in this issue!!

We went at things through the legislative angle...so we lobbied the government to ban smoking in all public places where children can go. It was actually an easy sell....so now in this Province there is no smoking in any public place that allows children to enter.

That's step one.

So now we have to go for public opinion about smoking around children in general. We developed a mass media campaign with the tag line "Second Hand Smoke - It Kills" and one of the messages was that if you smoke, we know it's an addiction and we support all your efforts to quit, but in the meantime, take it outside and don't smoke in enclosed areas with children - including your homes or your cars.

After this campaign is over THEN we will be going into the trenches with public support. So petitions, mass lobbying of government, trying to change child abuse laws...you name it, and it is on our agenda to do.

If you like, I can certainly do a little bit of research for you and see what is out there right now in the way of petitions. I know that Ontario has a VERY strong lobby group called Physicians for a Smoke Free Canada as well as the National Non-Smokers Rights Association - I bet you any money that you can sign any number of petitons on their websites.

I'll let you know!

Kim, if you can smell the smoke from his burning cigarette then he is too close. As well, if he was smoking in the car and then put out the cigarette and you and Catiti immediately got into the car then both of you are still being exposed to about 50 chemicals that have been proven to cause cancer. The chemicals in tobacco smoke linger on surfaces for hours...and while they are there, they are toxic.

Smoking outside is a great way to protect the people in your house, but as a tobacco control advocate I have to tell you - there is NO safe level of exposure to second hand smoke. NONE.Oh, I wasn't asking about safe levels or anything like that, I was asking more from a legislative standpoint. If we are talking about legislation with regards to smoking around children, I just wondered what would be the line, so to speak. Like, when drug dealers are withing x number of feet of a school, they are prosecuted more heavily and receive a harsher sentence (actually, I think DH said it becomes a federal crime rather than a state one but I am not sure). So, would the line have to be at x number of feet? Would it be a different line for indoors versus outdoors? If so, would different rooms matter? What about adjustments for weather conditions-windy and rainy is going to have a different effect than hot, humid, stagnent air.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it's ok by any means to smoke around children, your own or anyone else's. I am just wonder what the definition, as far as from a legislative standpoint, of "smoking around children" would be.

If you like, I can certainly do a little bit of research for you and see what is out there right now in the way of petitions. I know that Ontario has a VERY strong lobby group called Physicians for a Smoke Free Canada as well as the National Non-Smokers Rights Association - I bet you any money that you can sign any number of petitons on their websites.

I'll let you know!
Thank you. :aok:

FYI - I am a freelance writer, so, if you need any assistance in terms of writing articles, op/ed pieces etc., let me know. I am thinking of pitching an article to a parenting mag on the issue of smoking around children anyway.

Oh, I wasn't asking about safe levels or anything like that, I was asking more from a legislative standpoint. If we are talking about legislation with regards to smoking around children, I just wondered what would be the line, so to speak. Like, when drug dealers are withing x number of feet of a school, they are prosecuted more heavily and receive a harsher sentence (actually, I think DH said it becomes a federal crime rather than a state one but I am not sure). So, would the line have to be at x number of feet? Would it be a different line for indoors versus outdoors? If so, would different rooms matter? What about adjustments for weather conditions-windy and rainy is going to have a different effect than hot, humid, stagnent air.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it's ok by any means to smoke around children, your own or anyone else's. I am just wonder what the definition, as far as from a legislative standpoint, of "smoking around children" would be.
Ok...every Province and State have different regulations...some allow for smoking "rooms" - seperately ventilated areas in a building...but that really is not good enough IMHO.

We lobbied for - and recieved! - 100% smoke free indoor public places, if that place was where a child could go. So if you are a restaurant that allows children then no smoking is allowed, nor are you allowed to smoke in bowling alleys, rec centers, hotel lobbies...anywhere that does not specifically ban children - read: bars and pubs.

Our regulations right now are only for indoor public places, there have also been voluntary bans on perimeters of certain buildings...which is cool. Basically you cannot smoke within ten meters (sorry...I can't do the conversion into feet) of any entrance to a public building.

Thank you. :aok:

FYI - I am a freelance writer, so, if you need any assistance in terms of writing articles, op/ed pieces etc., let me know. I am thinking of pitching an article to a parenting mag on the issue of smoking around children anyway.
Hey that is cool...if you do that I can help with any research you might need. As well, I can definitely get it into our local papers. :thumbsup:

Ok...every Province and State have different regulations...some allow for smoking "rooms" - seperately ventilated areas in a building...but that really is not good enough IMHO.

We lobbied for - and recieved! - 100% smoke free indoor public places, if that place was where a child could go. So if you are a restaurant that allows children then no smoking is allowed, nor are you allowed to smoke in bowling alleys, rec centers, hotel lobbies...anywhere that does not specifically ban children - read: bars and pubs.

Our regulations right now are only for indoor public places, there have also been voluntary bans on perimeters of certain buildings...which is cool. Basically you cannot smoke within ten meters (sorry...I can't do the conversion into feet) of any entrance to a public building.So basically Canada has no smoking indoors in public buildings and not within 10 meters of any public building and no ban on places that specifically bar children. I assume that by public buildings it means basically commercial buildings and not just buildings owned by the government right? As far as I know the US doesn't have any statewide laws regarding it, though I believe some cities have set up their own ordinances. I just don't know how it could be implimented in the US, especially if it involves outdoors.

So basically Canada has no smoking indoors in public buildings and not within 10 meters of any public building and no ban on places that specifically bar children. I assume that by public buildings it means basically commercial buildings and not just buildings owned by the government right? As far as I know the US doesn't have any statewide laws regarding it, though I believe some cities have set up their own ordinances. I just don't know how it could be implimented in the US, especially if it involves outdoors.Oh my...God no. Not Canada...just my little corner of it. Federal legislation banning smoking hasn't really even been talked about much yet. At the federal level they take on the Tobacco Industry, taxes, promotion and stuff like that....every thing else is left to the Provincial level. And yes...commercial buildings are included...if children are allowed inside the doors then smoking is not allowed in there - public business, private business, it doesn't matter.

California has outdoor smoking bans actually...so do other areas of the US...so it does work and it is successful, we just need to learn from each other that's all.

Interestingly, Newfoundland has recently banned smoking from all correctional facilities, so if you are incarcerated for anything, you are not allowed to smoke on the property. Tobacco is contraband in fact. This was something that we never thought we would see but for some reason it happened much faster than we had hoped.

I think Louisiana is trying to pass that law. I hope we get that law here. When DD was less than a month old I went eat out with my family. The waiting area is in behind the smoking section. There was a woman sitting at the last table with her back to the waiting area but turned around and blew her smoke right into DD's face. I told the greeter that we were going wait outside because I didnt want my daughter in the middle of that womans disgusting habit, loud enough for her to hear.

I think Louisiana is trying to pass that law. I hope we get that law here. When DD was less than a month old I went eat out with my family. The waiting area is in behind the smoking section. There was a woman sitting at the last table with her back to the waiting area but turn arouned and blew her smoke right into DD's face. I told the greater that we were going wait outside because I didnt want my daughter in the middle of that womans disgusting habit, loud enough for her to hear.
Good for you Harmonie! :clap:

Someone I know once said - having a smoking section in a public restaurant is like having a peeing section in a public swimming pool :)

Good for you Harmonie! :clap:

Someone I know once said - having a smoking section in a public restaurant is like having a peeing section in a public swimming pool :)

:rotflmao:

I totally agree that smoking around children is not the way to go!! I would NEVER intentionally submit my child to SHS. If a friend/family member insisited on smoking around my child, I would leave the situation immedietly. Thankfully I have never had to do that!
In San Antonio, where I live, the just passed a law that there is no smoking in restaurants UNLESS the restaurant builds a seperate smoking room. Thankfully, most restaurants that we frequent opted not to build the room and are completely smoke free. Ideally, I would have liked a complete no smoking ban but I'll take what I can get!

Interestingly, Newfoundland has recently banned smoking from all correctional facilities, so if you are incarcerated for anything, you are not allowed to smoke on the property. Tobacco is contraband in fact. This was something that we never thought we would see but for some reason it happened much faster than we had hoped.
Most provinical correctional facilities are no smoking but they still allow it in federal penitentiaries, although The one I was at actually went no smoking in all living units a couple of years ago. It worked out fairly well. Before there were certain living units that were no smoking. Recently a 74 year old man in Manitoba was sentenced to 14 months and he asked for a 2 year sentence so he could go to a federal pen and keep smoking. :disbelief THEY LET HIM!! It's going to open quite a can of worms. They are trying to ban it in the federal pens, but the Union is kicking up a stink saying it'll be an intolerable environment. I suppose I can see their point from a security standpoint, but from a health standpoint everyone will be far better off. Tobacco would soon become more valuable inside than heroin.

BC had EXCELLENT no smoking laws (at least in Victoria) and it was quite a shock when we went to ON and into a restaurant and they said smoking or non? We were like, WHAT? Did we go back to the dark ages? They have smoking inside? :dead: And correct me if I'm wrong but I think BC has the lowest smoking rate of Canada.

Anyway, I am a die hard no-smoker, have never smoked and from the time Mason was an infant and we walked through the smokey mall entrance I have said, "Smoking is bad Mason. It makes you look bad, it makes you smell bad, it makes you feel bad. Smoking is bad." It was/is my mantra.

I hope those who smoke or have relatives who do, quit for the children's sake.

I think that if a relationship with your child is that important to them, they should choose not to smoke around your child. I would risk the relationship to protect my daughter from SHS. In my opinion, anyone who refuses to keep a smoke-free atmosphere around my child is SELFISH. That's all there is to it. If my parents still smoked, then I would make them come to my house. If they decided that smoking was more important than a relationship with their grandchild, then so be it. That is *their* choice. I doubt most grandparents would choose smoking over their grandchild if they were forced to choose. I agree 100% with this! We've also made waitresses move us to a new non-smoking seat if the spot they sat us was to close to the smoking section. DD (and now ds, though we haven't taken him out to eat yet!) does not need to be exposed to smoke in any form... My grandpa does smoke...but he does it outside in the front yard of his house (and not at all when he is visiting us, he just goes the whole day without it cause he RESPECTS us) so dd can't even see him...he never smokes in his house or car (grandma would kill him!).... We are very against smoking around children...it's just not ok, and we were both smokers untill December 2001...we still didn't think smoking around children was ok though.

California has outdoor smoking bans actually...so do other areas of the US...so it does work and it is successful, we just need to learn from each other that's all.California has indoor smoking bans, too. You can't even smoke in bars in California.

I wish they would pass laws like that here, because I don't even want to be exposed to SHS. But the restaurants are so afraid that they will lose business so they fight and manage to win every time.

I think Deleware has an indoor smoking ban now too. I wish NJ would get one. I can't even stand to go to a bowling alley b/c it's always so smokey. *I* can't stand it, I can't imagine what it does to DD.

I think Deleware has an indoor smoking ban now too. I wish NJ would get one. I can't even stand to go to a bowling alley b/c it's always so smokey. *I* can't stand it, I can't imagine what it does to DD.
We went to a diner in Morristown yesterday morning (we were in NJ for our playgroup get-together) and we have to walk THROUGH the smoking section to get to the non-smoking section! I was a little :grr: about that.

Okay, so I just read through the entire thread. Interesting reading! I've got so many thoughts jumbled up in my head right now. :lol:

First off, I hate smoking. My dad smoked a pipe when we were little, but stopped as soon as I was dignosed with asthma. Too little, too late? Perhaps. (I love the smell of pipe tobacco, though. :nod: ) I do have an obvious condition that may or may not have been caused by my father's smoking, but I think that many children who appear healthy on the outside, might not have such healthy looking lungs.

First, the whole "smart" conversation just didn't sit well with me. I honestly don't think it matters whether you have a doctorate from an esteemed university and are eligible for MENSA, or if you struggled through special ed in order to earn your high school diploma, consistenly exposing your child to second hand smoke is not a good parenting decision. Your IQ, or the letters after your name have NOTHING to do with it. Intelligent people make bad decisions every day. ITA with Andrea, that choosing to smoke around your children or grandchildren is selfish. I do know that having an addiction is not an easy thing to overcome, but surely the health of your child or grandchild has to come first. Then again... maybe not.

As far as abuse, I think that I could support a parent smoking around their child as abuse. It's just one of those subjects that gets awfully fuzzy, as I believe Kim was trying to point out.

Okay, this may not be as thought out and clear as I would like, but my baby is up, and we're going to the park. :)

I know that in the Niagara Region of Ontario there are HUGE smoking bans. There has to be a separately vetilated room or no smoking allowed inside.
I hate when people stand by the doors and smoke when I have to walk by with Dylan. Just last week when I went to the hospital to visit someone, people were standing right at the door smoking away even though the sigh said you MUST be at least 9M away. I said something as I walked past. I don't care if it's raining or not.

Anyway, on topic, I would never intentionally expose Dylan to SHS. It isn't your child's fault that you started smoking but he/she is the greatest reason to quit.
You are not only potentionally shortening their life but your own too.
I know that there are some OUAL who smoke and are probably offended by alot of what has been posted.
I also think that using the "my parents smoked around me and I am fine" excuse is.
To those parents who use that and/or smoke around their kids, would you want your child to start smoking?

Personally I think the abuse term goes too far. I grew up with 2 parents that smoked and although they would have liked to quit that was not too popular in the 70's. I only see them once or twice a year and as they are in their mid 70's there is no way I am not going to see them just because they smoke... Their house - their rules. With that being said Emma is really never around anyone else who smokes so I don't think about it too often. I think it is all a matter of degrees. Anyone who knows me knows that I refuse to go over the top in my beliefs in anything. I refuse to be insulting to anyone and say that is OK "because I am doing it all for Emma." If I am uncomfortable I can leave or move tables. It is not my place to be rude to people who lead different lives than I do. That is what bothers me the most about this topic. It brings out the worst in some people who are against it. I know you are trying to protect your children, but that is your job - not everyone elses.

I know you are trying to protect your children, but that is your job - not everyone elses. Yes, it is MY job to protect my child. That is why I will NOT bring her to places where people are smoking. I do put my child's HEALTH above anyone's nasty, unhealthy habit. While it may not be anyone else's job (save for my DH) to protect my child's health, that does not mean smokers rights should supercede the rights of my child (any child, any PERSON) to breathe healthy air. It's not like drugs/alcohol/fatty foods where it doesn't directly affect those around the person partaking of those habits. Smoking creates an unhealthful environment. There is no denying that. I believe that is the point people are trying to get across here. There is no safe way to be around someone smoking. Not to say you shouldn't bring your kids near people who smoke, but that children should not be near ANYONE while they are smoking.

If I am uncomfortable I can leave or move tables. It is not my place to be rude to people who lead different lives than I do. That is what bothers me the most about this topic. It brings out the worst in some people who are against it. I know you are trying to protect your children, but that is your job - not everyone elses.
Actually...not to be picky but it IS my job...that is exactly what I was hired for...to try to do everything possible to make sure that people are protected from second hand smoke. We have four goals in my organization - protection, prevention, cessation and denormalization...the number one goal being protection of all people from the negative health, environmental and economic effects of second hand smoke.

As a human being it is my responsibility to ensure that my actions do not harm other people - children included in that....so I don't agree that it is not my job to make sure that children are not poisoned by second hand smoke. It is my job as a tobacco control advocate, as a mother, as a teacher and as a human being.

On another note...I am unsure how you assume that just because I will not allow my children to be exposed to second hand smoke, AND that I don't agree with ANYONE exposing their children to second hand smoke that that means that I am in any way shape or form RUDE to them :dunno: I am the most polite person there is...simply moving away or not entering a place where smoking is allowed is not rude...nor is telling people that I will not be bringing my child to visit if they are smoking in the house or telling visitors that they cannot smoke in my house. That is not rude at all - that is sensible and smart and SAFE.

I think that this topic actually brings out the best in me - not the worst.

People who take their child into a home or area where there is smoke present have been called “stupid, child abusers, and neglectful parents,” even though they are doing something that is COMPLETELY legal! I know some are trying to make it illegal, but until that happens, I really don't agree with calling someone an abuser because of it.

If I were to go into the bottle-feeding forum and call someone who has decided not to breastfeed, stupid or a child abuser or selfish because the mother didn’t even want to try breastfeeding, I’m sure I would not only be flamed, but also possibly banned from this site! Not the same you say? Well ask an extremist who is pro-breastfeeding. I don’t think there is anyone here who would say that breastfeeding isn’t best for babies. Look at the statistics, it reduces SIDS rates, it keeps babies healthier and some say that it makes them 5-10 IQ points smarter. An extremist might say, “anyone who doesn’t at least try to breastfeed for as long as possible is stupid because they are putting their child’s health in question.”

If you still can’t understand the point I’m trying to make, then lets try a different issue, immunizations, which can be hotly contested. I’m sure there are people who believe that immunizations are harmful to a baby’s immune system, in that it doesn’t let the baby to develop his/her own immunities. Also the autism issue may arise. Imagine a thread regarding the pros vs. cons of immunizing and someone posted that anyone who chooses to immunize is stupid, uniformed and immunizations are tantamount to child abuse.

What about the other side? If I vehemently believed that immunizations are important and I called any parent who believed otherwise “stupid, and that their choice was child neglect or abuse because the child could be exposed to diseases that can cause death, disfigurement, and extreme sickness,” again I would be called to the carpet because of my use of words. However, if I just cited examples of illnesses that a child could avoid if s/he was immunized then I would be expressing facts, not an opinion which vilifies another person’s actions.

Again, I’m just protesting the words of “stupid, child abuse, and child neglect.” I'm not saying that smoking is good in anyway. I applaud efforts to ban all indoor smoking. However, these are hurtful words which should be thought of long and hard before they are used to describe fellow posters.

Again Melissa...you are comparing apples and oranges...you are comparing situations where there are different BENEFITS to choosing a certain route, or different concerns with NOT going a certain route....you have yet to come up with an example where a parents actions or the actions of a person around a child are DIRECTLY PROVEN DANGEROUS...not better or more beneficial...downright DANGEROUS.

I DO think long and hard about how I post...but I refuse to pussyfoot around this issue just to appease a few people who can't see the reason behind what I am saying...thankfully there are only a few. Otherwise, my job would be 10 times more difficult.

An extremist for breastfeeding would say, not feeding breastmilk is downright dangerous because your child could have allergies, asthma, and has a higher risk for sids.

An extremist for immunizations would say, if you don't immunize that is downright dangerous because your child would have no resistance to diseases that could kill him/her.

An extremist who is against immunizing would say, if you immunize that is downright dangerous because the effects of the vaccine are more dangerous than the diseases themselves. Or the vaccine itself could kill the child.

I'm not comparing how harmful those things are to smoking! Obviously you missed the point of my previous post.

Yes the extremists would say that.

In the case of smoking and second hand smoke however...it is not just tobacco control advocates who are saying that second hand smoke hurts children and is extremely dangerous...it is EVERY Medical Association, , EVERY WORLD health organization, EVERY Pediatric Council, even EVERY health provider who is stating the exact same thing - second hand smoke contains cancer causing substances and it is irresposible of parents and caregivers to consistently and continuously allow their children to be exposed to it.

If every scientific study and every health professional and every health organization stated that feeding your child a certain type of formula will cause them to get sick, expose them to over 50 dangerous chemicals and more than likely cause them LASTING health problems long into their adult years and said NOT that breast is best but that formula KILLS..then you can be darn well sure that there would be more than one person saying that knowingly feeding your child this tainted formula would be neglect and abuse...and incredibly stupid and irresponsible.

Find me a situation Melissa that you can adequately compare to exposure to second hand smoke and then we can have a good discussion.

First of all I don't think you can compare formula feeding to second hand smoke. Formula feeding does not CAUSE those health issues you mentioned. Is it the BEST way to feed an infant? No, breastfeeding is. Is it a bad choice? No it is not. Breastfeeding is just a BETTER choice. Second hand smoke does CAUSE health problems. I'm not sure who you were refering to about the name calling. I do not believe just because someone lets their child be around SHS is stupid. Both of my parents smoked around us until they quit (my dad when I was 17 my mom when I was just about 24). Neither is stupid by any stretch. Do I think they made uninformed decisions and poor judgement? Yes I do. Were they bad parents? Absolutely NOT!

We all do the best we can for our children to the best of our knowledge and abilites. Am I the world's best parent? No freakin' way. But I try to minimize the risks to my child as best I can. I choose not to put her in situations that are harmful to her. I cannot speak for anyone but myself here, but I admit (as I have already stated) that I feel people who refuse to not smoke around children are selfish. Mostly it is older people who are not as informed on the dangers as we are. So many people use the excuse that they would rather their child have a relationship with the grandparents and risk the SHS exposure. Why do you and your child have to make that sacrifice? Why can't the grandparents (or whoever) sacrifice smoking indoors? I understand it may be difficult to refrain from smoking for X amount of time, so smoke outside for those hours (or days) that the children are in your home.

I also don't see how it is being rude to ask someone to not smoke in my home or to say I will not bring my child to their house if they are going to smoke. It's not like I am saying that they are bad people, just that I do not want my child around smoke. If my child were allergic to dogs and I said I cannot bring my child to your house because it will make her sick, is that rude? I am connfussed about how we (collective we) are being rude by refusing to expose our children to SHS.

I am not saying that people who believe this are rude. But they are rude when they make snide comments that others can overhear, just to express their disgust with smoking... It is fine that you do not like it, but when people make rude comments that is going over the line in my book. Not all anti smoking people are rude, but I have heard my fair share of nasty comments in restaurants and that offends me even though they are not speaking with me... Melissa I know that is your job and that is your job in Canada... I am not sure an anti-smoking law would go over well in the cowboy town of Houston...

Isn't it then rude for those smokers who are smoking in non-smoking areas? The ONLY time I ever make "rude comments" w/in earshot of smokers is when they are smoking in designated non-smoking areas. Usually this is outside of stores/resturants etc.

It is my job to lobby the government for the laws to change and to make sure that people are aware of and are educated about the dangers of smoking and second hand smoke. It is not my job to be rude :) Unless someone is deliberately invading my space with their habit...then I can politely ask them to either put the cigarette out or move. In the long run and no matter what...my right to breathe clean air superceded ANYONE'S right to smoke near me.

WOW! What a hot topic. :) I'll step in and give my opinion.

I am one who also believes people who expose children or adults to smoke is abusive! I also agree with Melissa - for the exact same reasons she set out -- that you can't compare things like bf vs. bottlefeeding, immunizations, etc. with this topic. Smoking is a nasty, DEADLY habit for more than just the smoker and I can't wait until it is illegal in every area of the world for a person to expose others to this danger.

I also have first hand experienc of being a child of a smoker. As a result, I have allergies that still require weekly shots. My children (one year old and one in the belly)do not go around my dad when he smokes nor do we go to his home where he smokes. It has been a decision I made before any children came along. He visits here or at my mom's home and is fine with it. He knows that if he wants my children to stay overnight, he has to stop smoking in his home. I am the last link between my child and dangers of the world and I will do whatever it takes to keep them safe for as long as possible.

I have personally launched a campaign in my city to get our Zoo smoke-free. My battle has resulted in the buildings and semi-enclosed areas being smoke-free. The idea of the entire outside zoo becoming smoke-free is under advisement. And I am hopeful that with the advance of other cities in our state becoming smoke-free, that a decision will be made in support of a healthy Zoo for our children. Currently, the American Cancer Society of Arkansas has asked me to help with some anti-smoking campaigns they are organizing. I look forward to educating people on the dangers of second hand smoke and stopping it. :)

Just wanted to share that Connecticut has a smoking ban! Woo hoo! Everywhere but the casinos because they aren't really in CT. :rolleyes: The bar owners are putting up a big stink because they are saying they are losing business. Initially yes but I believe these people will be back. Now you just have to walk through a whole crowd of them going into places because there are no laws about that!

California has indoor smoking bans, too. You can't even smoke in bars in California.

I wish they would pass laws like that here, because I don't even want to be exposed to SHS. But the restaurants are so afraid that they will lose business so they fight and manage to win every time.

At least it is seperated by glass the smoking section from the non (in most counties) in Michigan it is only seperated by an invisable line.

My in laws were here from PA visiting us when I was pregnant with Adam and had Emma. They wanted to go to this restaurant for brunch it was a small mom and pop place which allowed smoking. I took one step in and left. I took Emma with me. I wasn't going to sit in smoke just to have breakfast with the in laws.

Again, I'm not comparing the cause and effects of BFing, immunizations, I'm trying to get across that its wrong to call someone a child abuser, stupid, or a neglectful parent.

I'd just like to leave with this word of warning to anyone who continues to call people child abusers, you can be sued for libel or defamation of character. Web sites are considered public forums and therefore anyone can look at it (even if they have to subscribe and pay for it), so if someone says, "if you expose your child to second hand smoke you are a child abuser," that can be construed as defamation of character.

I agree second hand smoke is not beneficial in anyway, but you do need to be careful of what you say!

I don't think anyone directed the comments to any one person. And I know I have only stated that IN MY OPINION it should be illegal. And I realize you may not have been directing you comment at me, but I wanted to post my two cents. I think there is a difference between saying you believe that parents who expose thier children to SHS are abusers and saying that specifically Jane Doe is a child abuser because she exposes her child to SHS. But in this sue happy country, people will do anything for a buck :rolleyes:

I do believe that this is getting to be a very dangerous thread.
Remember personal attacks are not allowed.
http://www.pcaalabama.org/definition_of_abuse.html .

So then if abuse is too strong a term for you, what about neglect?

I do believe that this is getting to be a very dangerous thread.
Remember personal attacks are not allowed.
http://www.pcaalabama.org/definition_of_abuse.html .

So then if abuse is too strong a term for you, what about neglect?
Who is being personally attacked?? :dunno:

I just don't want anyone to be attacked that's all.

It seems tempers are getting hot.

oh OK :blush:

Again, I'm not comparing the cause and effects of BFing, immunizations, I'm trying to get across that its wrong to call someone a child abuser, stupid, or a neglectful parent.

I'd just like to leave with this word of warning to anyone who continues to call people child abusers, you can be sued for libel or defamation of character. Web sites are considered public forums and therefore anyone can look at it (even if they have to subscribe and pay for it), so if someone says, "if you expose your child to second hand smoke you are a child abuser," that can be construed as defamation of character.

I agree second hand smoke is not beneficial in anyway, but you do need to be careful of what you say!
Actually Melissa...if I want to post an opinion that feeding a child macaroni and cheese is child abuse then I am perfectly within my rights in a democracy to say that. That is my opinion and I have every right to state it. Now...if you feed your child macaroni and cheese and you have a problem with me saying that...then that is just what it is - YOUR problem. At NO point in this thread has ANYONE said "Melissa - YOU are a child abuser because you allow your children to be exposed to second hand smoke" The very concept of saying that is ridiculous. And if you go back to EVERY instance in this thread then you will see that NOONE has pointed fingers at ANYONE. Generalize concepts have been discussed and opinions have been shared. If you have a problem with that or if you feel like somone is being singled out and "defamed" then perhaps you should speak to the administrators of this site and see what they think about it.

This is has been a VERY interesting thread, and with a few exceptions, has been very thoughtful, reasonable and supportive. It is wonderful to see so many people interested and willing to learn more about the tobacco epidemic. Perhaps one day in the future, discussions like this one will never be necessary, because smoking will be a thing of the past. (One can hope right???)

I'd just like to leave with this word of warning to anyone who continues to call people child abusers, you can be sued for libel or defamation of character. Web sites are considered public forums and therefore anyone can look at it (even if they have to subscribe and pay for it), so if someone says, "if you expose your child to second hand smoke you are a child abuser," that can be construed as defamation of character.

I agree second hand smoke is not beneficial in anyway, but you do need to be careful of what you say!
Besides the fact that no one has made any remark that would meet the statutory definition of either defamation or libel in most jurisdictions, it is very difficult to be successful in either of those types of lawsuits. Additionally, a person would have a heavy burden of establishing which jurisdiction is proper for this type of lawsuit considering the method of communication is on the internet. Finally, the first amendment protects the type of speech that is occurring in this debate. :) We are stating that we believe a certain behavior is abusive. I don't believe anyone has said "X is a child abuser." As such, we have the absolute right to make the above statement without fear of retribution via the court system. :)

If you have a problem with that or if you feel like somone is being singled out and "defamed" then perhaps you should speak to the administrators of this site and see what they think about it.

This is has been a VERY interesting thread, and with a few exceptions, has been very thoughtful, reasonable and supportive.
At this point, I have to say that it seems like comments have been general enough that I don't think anyone has been defamed or attacked. While strong statements have been made, these have all been generalized statements, and I think that the hurt feelings are coming from indivuduals transferring them from general statements to personal statements. And that isn't how they were intended., IMO

Thank you Sheila :)

I've been through this same discussion on another sight. It seems pointless to me. Until it becomes illegal to smoke in the presence of a child there is nothing to be done.

Calling it abuse is going a little far for my taste. Yes it's stupid, but good people/parents do stupid things daily. How many times have you seen a child unrestrained in a moving car? It unfortunately happens too often. Or children are not properly restrained. That IS illegal. How many parents are feeding their child too much junk food and not the giving them the daily nutrional requirements they really need? NOT illegal, but certainly stupid.

It's easy to attach the word abuse to someone's actions, but it's very hard to prove. Studpidity on the other hand is usually very obvious.

BTW...I'm a smoker and I applaud those of you who are trying to keep your children away from second hand smoke, just like you would any other danger to them. Unfortunately not all parents feel (no matter what the lit. says) that it is harmful.

It's easy to attach the word abuse to someone's actions, but it's very hard to prove. Studpidity on the other hand is usually very obvious.

BTW...I'm a smoker and I applaud those of you who are trying to keep your children away from second hand smoke, just like you would any other danger to them. Unfortunately not all parents feel (no matter what the lit. says) that it is harmful.
This is so TRUE! Some people are like talking to brick walls....it's almost as if they don't WANT to believe it so they just ignore it in the hopes that it will go away. Which is ridiculous!

I just find it so sad that innocent children are being hurt every day by their own parent's actions....they don't even have to QUIT smoking if they don't want to...just take the things OUTSIDE. That one simple change in behaviour would make a world of difference!

I thought that this was an interesting statistic to present here to you all. I was just doing some research and found this:

http://www.smoke-free.ca/eng_home/news_press_April24-2002.htm

This paragraph REALLY shook me:

Health Canada estimates that of the roughly 2,000 infant deaths every year in Canada, 105 are the result of babies' exposure to cigarette smoke. These babies die from Sudden Infant Death syndrome (17 baby boys and 13 baby girls), respiratory diseases (28 baby boys and 15 baby girls) and low birth-weight (18 baby boys 14 baby girls). Had they not been exposed to cigarette smoke before and after birth, 63 boys and 42 girls would have celebrated their first birthdays.

I thought you all would be interested to hear that the CA legislature is trying to pass a measure that would fine people for smoking in their car if a child is present.

From today's San Diego Union-Tribune:

Kids in car? Then no smoking, bill says

Measure would fine drivers who light up

By James P. Sweeney
COPLEY NEWS SERVICE

May 4, 2004 SACRAMENTO – California may soon put children in the driver's seat when it comes to smoking in cars.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/images/t.gifLegislation that would impose a $25 fine on motorists caught smoking with children on board has quietly passed one committee and could be difficult to stop if it begins to gather political momentum.


If enacted, it would become the first such law in the country, burnishing California's standing as a leader in the national campaign against tobacco.

"Kids are particularly susceptible to secondhand smoke, particularly younger kids," said Assemblyman Marco Firebaugh (D-Los Angeles), who introduced the bill, AB 2997. "They are developing lung capacity. They are still growing and secondhand smoke is very harmful to them."

California's 1994 ban on smoking in public buildings and other enclosed workplaces, including bars, was the first law of its kind in the nation. It has been credited, along with an advertising campaign financed with tobacco taxes, for driving the state's adult smoking rate down to 16.6 percent, second only to Utah.

The hazards of secondhand smoke, a known carcinogen, are no longer disputed even by the tobacco industry. Scientists say secondhand smoke can cause cancer, heart disease and intensify other respiratory conditions, such as asthma.

Secondhand smoke also increases the risk of sudden infant death syndrome and problems associated with fluid in the middle ear, which can affect hearing and speech, said Dr. Stephen Carson, a children's lung specialist in San Diego.

"There is no question that there are significant dangers from secondhand smoke, particularly in cars," Carson said.

But it is still not unusual to see motorists smoking with children in a vehicle, Firebaugh said.

"If you consider the youngest kids, who are in car seats, they are virtual hostages to smoking drivers," Firebaugh said. "They can't even roll down a window."

As evidence of how big the problem may be, the bill's supporters cite a 2001 survey conducted for the state Department of Health Services.

Of more than 12,000 high school students questioned, 29 percent said they had been exposed to tobacco smoke in a vehicle within the previous week.

"I don't think anyone's quantified what the exposure is in cars," said Paul Knepprath of the American Lung Association. "It's just one of those issues that people see enough driving around."

Firebaugh's measure applies when passengers are age 18 and younger. Fines for repeat offenses could increase to $96. The bill cleared the Transportation Committee two weeks ago with a bare majority and little notice. All but one Democrat voted for it, while all five Republicans on the committee opposed it.

Assemblyman Jay La Suer (R-La Mesa), who cast a dissenting vote, said there is more than enough government interference in people's lives already.

"I think parents make better parents than the government does," La Suer said.

The bill still must pass the Appropriations Committee before it would go to the full Assembly. The tobacco industry so far has not weighed in with formal opposition, but Firebaugh and others say the measure almost certainly will draw a fight.

"It challenges the status quo around smoking and privacy in vehicles, and because of that, I think it's going to have a tough road," said Knepprath of the the lung association.

The Democratic-dominated Legislature has enacted some of the nation's toughest laws against smoking over the past decade, including a ban on smoking within 25 feet of any playground.

Lawmakers have balked in recent years at a proposal to raise the state's legal smoking age to 21. Lawmakers this year also are considering a proposed ban on smoking within state prisons.

Despite a lower political profile of late, the tobacco industry remains a formidable force behind the scenes. No tobacco company has taken a public position on the Firebaugh bill, but a spokeswoman for industry leader Philip Morris USA said the company is telling lawmakers it doesn't like the measure.

"Adults should avoid smoking around kids, but we don't think that, as a matter of private conduct, this is something that should be legislated," said Jamie Drogin, the Philip Morris spokeswoman.

Several states have debated a broad prohibition on smoking in cars with children, said Diane Maple of the lung association's national office. Maine has a narrower law that applies only to foster parents and Delaware prohibits smoking in vehicles that transport children for day-care centers.

Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has not taken a position on the bill. Firebaugh believes it would be tough for the governor, a cigar enthusiast and avowed children's advocate, to veto. "You can't take the side of a tobacco company against the interests of children," Firebaugh warned. "You just can't do that."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040504/news_1n4smoke.html

Oh WOW! that is AWESOME! How cool is that? I would love to see a law like that passed here...hmmm....must add it to my "To Do" list! :lol:

That's a great bill. I hope it's passed. However, I think the fine needs to be more than $25 :rolleyes:

GREAT! I want Arkansas to get that!

That's a great bill. I hope it's passed. However, I think the fine needs to be more than $25 :rolleyes:

:nod: ITA but I guess they have to start somewhere.

A few years ago, maybe 2000, or 2001 there was a court case in Victoria BC, a child custody thing, and the Dad had primary custody and the Mom and her new boyfriend wanted to take the kid (maybe 7 or so?) across the country in a car on vacation. The Dad went to court to deny the visit because the Mom and Step-Dad smoked, and he didn't want his kid exposed to the smoke in the car. If I recall correctly the Court allowed the kid to go but said if the Mom and Step-Dad were smoking in the car, they had to have the windows open. Totally unenforceable, but progress. A lot of people were watching that case.

Also, a friend of mine, still in Victoria, saw a lady in her car smoking with 2 kids in car seats in the back, one in a basket, so very young. He marched over there and banged on her window and gave her holy hell for smoking in the car with the windows closed. I couldn't believe it! I thought that was very brave of him. And he doesn't have kids either, but was horrified. He told her, you can choose to smoke if you want, but those kids don't have a choice, how dare you smoke in front of them! I don't think she was too impressed with him.

I am an x-smoker so I think I see things from both sides. I quit when I found out I was pregnant with Abby. Now since having her I sometimes smoke while drinking with friends or Dh & I will occasionally smoke on our back porch when Abby is napping or not at home. But we NEVER have Abby around smoke!!:nono: Nor do ever smoke in our house or vehicles or in public for that matter. She is never around us if we do smoke and we have actully stopped going over to friends house because of them smoking inside.

One thing I've been really excited :clap: about since moving back to Florida last year is that smoking is illegal in restaraunts!!! I am so happy that I can go out out dinner and not have to exposed my daughter or smell it.
I once took Abby to a pediatrician when she was only a few weeks old, after her appointment I went to leave and they had a security guard outside the building.... well to my shock he was smoking!!!:wtf: The fricking security guard was smoking right by the door to the pediatricians office!!!!!:mad: I was so ticked off!! needless to say we never went back.

I know how hard it is to quit, I really don't know if I ever would have if I hadn't gotten pregant.:dunno: And I think calling it abuse might be a stretch, but I do believe in the law someone talked about that they are working on in california... no smoking in the car with a child and I am very glad that I live in a state that bans smoking in restaraunts. I also do think that parents should not smoke close to thier children and should do thier best to avoid it in public. I think that as smoking is becomming more and more socially unacceptable this will become less of an issue because there will not be as many smokers around... at least I hope.:lick:

I thought you all would be interested to hear that the CA legislature is trying to pass a measure that would fine people for smoking in their car if a child is present.
I think this is great and I hope it passes.

The crazy thing about western US states is that if the fire danger is high, you cannot smoke in a car with the windows down. We went to the Grand Canyon and Las Vegas one summer and it was a horrible trip because my Grandmother chain-smoked and she couldn't have the windows down so she smoked with them up. I have bad allergies and it was really torture for me (at almost 21) to be in the car with her for the long drives.

I love living in a town that is just about smoke-free (apart from all the huddled masses puffing away just outside the doors - UGH!). But now that the weather is improving, I would love to sit on the patio and enjoy the weather and I can't because all the smokers are outside. :blue:

The news just said that the law to ban smoking in public places just got a step closer. :yipee: I cant wait!!

The news just said that the law to ban smoking in public places just got a step closer. :yipee: I cant wait!!
nationwide, or locally??

nationwide, or locally??

:blush: Locally sorry! I forgot to mention that.

I don't want to get into the debate on whether it is child abuse or not, but I am TOTALLY against smoking in public places (whether there are kids around or not - I don't want to have the smell smoke either!). Being that Chicago is a fairly big city, I am surprised that nothing has been started to ban smoking in public places. Does anyone know how laws like these get proposed? Or how to find out if your state has it in process?

It looks like Chicago has been debating this for a long while....an outright ban on smoking in public places seems to be on the agenda everywhere but it keeps dying on the floor right now.

Here is some great information about smoke free laws and how to advocate for changes:

http://www.no-smoking.org/dec03/12-05-03-4.html

http://www.tobaccotoolkit.ca/index.html

http://www.smokefreeworld.com/illinois.shtml

This is a great site if you want to sign on for a smoke free Chicago!

http://lungaction.org/smokefree/home.html

My best friend, who's a nurse, thinks that smoking around kids should be considered child abuse. Extreme? Yes. But, I tend to agree with her. :nod:


Count me in on this too!

All the bars/restaurants in Ontario (i think..i know of the GreaterToronto Area anyways) do not allow smoking inside anymore:yippee:.

Lock me up! I smoked while I was pregnant with Cassie, I smoked in the home with her, am I proud of it no.. I still feel really guilty about it... she had asthma and yet I still smoked in the home (not as much but heck once is enough) I quit 5+ years ago TG! so Paige has never been exposed to smoke, if someone is smoking in their home(havn't yet come across this) we would leave simple... last week I heard something on the news about this becoming consitered abuse :scratch: I don't know if I would go that far?? this is coming from someone who was beaten as a child and lived in a a smokers home, trust me when I say I would much rather have breathed in the smoke than been beaten everyday.. it's hard for me to lump them together kwim?

Lisa it is hard to lump them together...and I really don't think that they fall on the same exact end of the spectrum of abuse. In my opinion though, under an umbrella term of "neglect" smoking around children should definitely be there. Beating your children every day is abuse, locking them up is abuse, not providing them with adequate food and shelter is abuse and yes, exposing children to poisonous gas in the form of tobacco smoke IS abuse.

I like the term neglect better, don't get me wrong I agree that exposing a baby to smoke is WRONG...nothing worse than picking up a new born baby and smelling it on him or her :(

One of the stats that I hear all the time is that a newborn baby held in the arms of a person who is smoking is actually being MORE harmed than the smoker him/herself. The smoke is UNBEARABLY hazardous to those brand new little lungs. :(

See there is an image I just can't conjure up? smoking with the baby in your arms?? I have actully heard( on a callin show) about moms who smoke while breastfeeding..now that is just :crazy:

Isn't that just the most assbackwards thing you have ever heard???? They are breastfeeding and then smoking at the same time...Can you imagine? UGH!!

My mom smoked while BFing me. I don't suppose they knew as much about SHS back then, but I cannot imagine. :rolleyes:

My mom smoked while BFing me. I don't suppose they knew as much about SHS back then, but I cannot imagine. :rolleyes:
Nope...you know what Andrea...she probably DIDN'T know. The tobacco industry did a fabulous job of hiding all of their research for DECADES...and in fact, denied that smoking was even harmful to your health until a few short years ago. :furious:

But that's a WHOLE other thread entirely! :lol:

just read through this whole thread...wow...

I am wondering who here is a smoker currently, who is a smoker that has quit, and who is a smoker that is trying to quit. Personally, I don't like to make judgements about this one. I know how hard it is to quit, I struggle with it everyday. I don't look at it any differently then someone who is an alcoholic or a drug addict. The addiction is completely overwhelming and takes over your self control sometimes.

Shannon....studies have shown that nicotine is more addictive than cocaine and heroin. It is an insidious drug that is also very poisonous in its raw form.

If anyone is interested in quitting or is even thinking about quitting:

www.smokershelp.net (http://www.smokershelp.net)
www.quitnet.org (http://www.quitnet.org)

Also many US states have quitlines so you can call for information. If you can't find your local number call 1-800-363-5864 That's the Smoker's Help Line for Newfoundland, but we are very VERY good and as a bonus, if you call on Wednesday nights - I'll be there. I am one of the counsellors. :biggrin:

just read through this whole thread...wow...

I am wondering who here is a smoker currently, who is a smoker that has quit, and who is a smoker that is trying to quit. Personally, I don't like to make judgements about this one.
I'm a smoker who has quit. Both dh and I quit in preparation to start TTC, it ended up turning out that we quit less than a week before I got a BFP with Janelle. Honestly quitting wasn't hard for me, but who would want to smoke when they have hyperemesis? DH said it was difficult, but definitely not as hard as people let on for him.

I just found this thread - very interesting debates :nod:

Just wanted to comment - I'm a child protection social worker in Vancouver and actually had a case with a custody dispute where smoking was being used against a family whose child was in care, b/c she had severe health issues (asthma, etc.)

While I have very strong personal beliefs about the issue (and I would use the term 'medical abuse', even though it sounds very strong - there's just too much info out there to support that (asthma, SIDS, resperitory disease, low birthweight, etc.), and I think it SHOULD be lumped in with restricting the use of alcohol during PG), I do realize that it is an addiction and should be treated as such. But to ignore the issue - leaving it up to 'choice' ESPECIALLY when someone's pregnant - without proper education is a disservice. At the very cold end of the argument, I don't want my tax dollars (in Canada, mind you) treating your child's totally preventable illness. (Does that sound really harsh?)

Dee

At the very cold end of the argument, I don't want my tax dollars (in Canada, mind you) treating your child's totally preventable illness. (Does that sound really harsh?)

Dee


Thats a great point! :nod:

I quit smoking several years ago. Actually I started the quiting process right when my uncle was dying of cancer (not smoking related but he was suffering so much) and than I met DH who hates smoke and has Asthma so It helped me to be motivated to stay away from the cigarettes.

I will never allow Nick to be around second hand smoke. I will not sit in a smoking section and won't go to resteraunts without a good divide that is far away. Heck if Nick is with me I say as far away from smoking as possible when asked smoking or non.

No one in my family smokes so it wasn't an issue. But my FIL smokes but he doesn't do so in his house and has respected our wishes to not smoke around Nick.