Importance of a 5-pt harness carseat.

[Hilary]

I got this in my email today, I thought it was worth sharing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azgBhZfcqaQ

[sheila]

Here is a website about him, for anyone who doesn't want to watch the video.
http://kyledavidmiller.memory-of.com/


I have 4 kids in my car on a regular basis. There is no way I can afford over $1000 in carseats. yikes.

[LISA]

:bawl: that is so heartbreaking :( thanks for sharing that Hilary..I'm really second guessing our booster seat after hearing about a child who was in a booster seat was ejected from the vehicle and died I think last week :(

[Cami]

Of course I'm sitting here crying because that is horrible. I think though that the importance of LATCH needs to be stressed... even if he'd been in a 5 pt harness, his seat still could have flown out because the seatbelt didn't work.

[Melissa]

I agree Cami, the 5 point would not have made a difference. After 40 pounds LATCH is not recommended, therefore they would have needed to use the seatbelt. I was surprised when I read that information, but it is on a number of carseat safety sites. Just google LATCH weight limits.

[Cami]

I agree Cami, the 5 point would not have made a difference. After 40 pounds LATCH is not recommended, therefore they would have needed to use the seatbelt. I was surprised when I read that information, but it is on a number of carseat safety sites. Just google LATCH weight limits.


Interesting, I didn't know that either. So there is nothing they could have done. Sometimes I look in the back of the car and think how little the kids look and I get so scared for them.

[Jayne]

You know I look at those and watch them and I think God my baby girl is still here with me. Her 5pt Car seat saved her life. It wasn't Brix and she was under 40 lbs (Still is) I am not saying that a booster wouldn't have saved her..(It saved Tylor) 54 lbs. Neither seat belts failed her their accident but the actual seat failed for Tylor. The back seat came unhitched and flew forward causing him to break his femur.

That video makes me so sad to think that I could have lost my daughter like she lost her son but I have to agree that while maybe he would have been secure in the car seat nothing would have stopped his seat from flying if the seatbelt broke. It just saddens me that children have to die in any way. Those videos are so hard to watch

This is Tylor's seat after the accident
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db05b3127cce91936d554c2400000016108AZMWbdq2ctP
(the back folded down..he was pinned under it and it actually tipped forward but dan pushed it back)
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d639b3127cce93d5f0978c5300000016108AZMWbdq2ctP
Alyssa in the seat that saved her

[AmyP]

I googled LATCH weight limits and found this:

http://www.thecarseatlady.com/vehicles/the_latch_system_4.html

Users must also be sure not exceed the weight limit for lower anchors of both the restraint and the vehicle.
Lower Anchors: There is no general consensus between vehicle and child restraint manufacturers as to the upper weight limit for the lower anchors. If the child restraint manufacturer's instructions, the vehicle owner's manual, or this table (http://www.saferidenews.com/pdfs/LATCHApp_B_pg105.pdf) do not discuss the issue, it is best to assume that the maximum weight allowed for the use of the lower anchors is 40 lbs.

Since the lower anchors bear the brunt of the force in a crash, concern for their upper weight limit is especially important. Unlike tether anchors, for which there is no alternative, the vehicle's safety belt--which was designed to restrain large adults--is an effective substitute for the lower anchors when securing a restraint used by a heavier child.

Tether Anchors: There is no general consensus between vehicle and child restraint manufacturers as to the upper weight limit for tether anchors. To find out the weight limits for your vehicle manufacturer, click here (http://www.saferidenews.com/pdfs/LATCHApp_B_pg105.pdf). In cases where the vehicle manufacturer is not specific, you can assume the upper limit is 40 lbs. Abiding by this limit is problematic, as there are many restraints on the market sold especially for children weighing over 40lbs and requiring the use of a tether. For more information on this controversial subject, please read this excerpt from the SafeRideNews LATCH manual (http://www.saferidenews.com/html/LATCH_P49.htm).

I'm so sorry for these poor folks. I cried through the whole video. I'm glad others in this thread mentioned the weight limits of LATCH. I had no idea until I read that and then I googled the info myself.

There really was nothing they could have done. Although I suppose if he were in a carseat with a 5-pt harness it's possible that he may have stayed in it while thrown from the vehicle and maybe it would have softened the blow. I don't know.

I did also read that you're not supposed to use LATCH on the lower center seat unless the vehicle's manual says it's okay because of the distance between the anchors. I'll be checking ours and adjusting as necessary in our truck because that's where Sarah's seat is right now.

ETA: I just checked our truck's manual and it's definitely in the wrong seat! I'll be fixing it during her nap. DH says otherwise, but the LATCH anchor is in the middle seat on a different version of the truck than what we have.

[AmyP]

You know I look at those and watch them and I think God my baby girl is still here with me. Her 5pt Car seat saved her life. It wasn't Brix and she was under 40 lbs (Still is) I am not saying that a booster wouldn't have saved her..(It saved Tylor) 54 lbs. Neither seat belts failed her their accident but the actual seat failed for Tylor. The back seat came unhitched and flew forward causing him to break his femur.

That video makes me so sad to think that I could have lost my daughter like she lost her son but I have to agree that while maybe he would have been secure in the car seat nothing would have stopped his seat from flying if the seatbelt broke. It just saddens me that children have to die in any way. Those videos are so hard to watch

This is Tylor's seat after the accident
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5db05b3127cce91936d554c2400000016108AZMWbdq2ctP
(the back folded down..he was pinned under it and it actually tipped forward but dan pushed it back)
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d639b3127cce93d5f0978c5300000016108AZMWbdq2ctP
Alyssa in the seat that saved her

Your accident and how Alyssa's car seat saved her was the first thing I thought of when I watched that video. :hug99:

[Colleen]

Oh man. This is going to be long.

This video has been making the rounds on the net and it started quite the uproar on a local board I am on.

I feel awful for the Mom who lost her child due to that horrific accident. I really do.

But that Mom in her heartbreak and fervor to share her story is really passing out innaccurate information.

LATCH is not superior to anchoring a carseat to a seatbelt. It was designed to make carseat installation easier. A carseat properly used and properly installed with either LATCH or a seatbelt are equally safe. Vehicles manufacured from 2002 and on have LATCH, so there are millions of vehicles on the road that don't have it. Those parents shouldn't be freaking out right now. Any car seat that was manufactured for the US and is less than 6 years old is perfectly safe when used correctly. All car seats manufactured to be used in the US must pass standard saftey guidelines.

Regarding top tethers, which are used with forward facing seats: (but not all boosters) Because the addition of a top tether was also discussed.

from http://www.car-safety.org/latch.html

"It is designed to prevent the forward movement of the top of a forward-facing carseat in a frontal crash. This reduces the head excursion of the child, and can reduce the chances of injury. Almost all current carseats can only meet the tougher new federal safety standards when the tether is used, even though they must still meet the minimum safety standards without a tether."


Do I think a top tether would assist in a frontal or side impact crash? For sure. But in a rollover situation where the seatbelt fails, it'll anchor the carseat somewhat, but my guess is the carseat would still become a flying projectile in some way.

I wish auto manufacturers would look at installing built in kid seats with the 5 point harness and make it standard, like LATCH.

One more thing about LATCH (from the same website)

LATCH is not necessarily safer than using a seatbelt to install a carseat. A carseat installed properly with seatbelts should be just as safe as one using LATCH. The advantage of the LATCH system is that it should make it much easier to get a proper installation.

I think some people have an incorrect idea of what LATCH can and cannot promise.

In this instance, it was the seatbelt failed, not the booster seat. Her 6 year old daughter was in an identical booster seat sitting right next to the little boy. Her seatbelt worked and she remained in her high back booster during the rollover and was fine.

A carseat tech friend of mine on my local board shared her thoughts about the video. While I can't C&P her post without her permission, I can sum it up. Her basic thoughts were that this Mom, in her grief, made the video. On her car seat tech board, many techs are reporting that parents are now taking infants who should be in a rear facing seat and putting them prematurely in the Britax Regent, using LATCH when the child is over 48 lbs, and tethering rear facing seats that weren't designed to be tethered rear facing. I guess she said this mom was also sent an email over a year ago about her promoting using LATCH in any circumstances. (The email was sent by a group of car seat techs.)

I also think that if her child would have been 10 years old and ejected from the van because the seat belt failed, it would have been more of a seat belt failure issue than a booster seat issue. Because that seat belt failed, plain and simple. And it scares me to think that something designed to keep you safe might not work.

So, yes, take this Mom's story and use it. Use it to make sure your child is in the right seat, the seat is properly installed, and that the seat is being used correctly. But don't let it make you think just because you don't have LATCH, can't afford a Britax, etc, that you are not doing all you can to keep your kids safe.

[Bev]

I did not watch the video yet but I will say this, if you read your car/booster seat manual many will say to use the booster over 40lbs and DO NOT use latch or a tether seat to restrain it, only the regular seat belt.

[Nichole]

Colleen, I was just going to say the same thing about LATCH. It's not designed to be safer, just easier so that more people buckle their carseats in. Great post. :aok:

What a terrible tragedy. :(

[Sandy]

I am not going to watch the video b/c I just can't handle stuff like that right now. Too high on the hormones, I guess. HOWEVER, I am going to use this to prompt me to go and get my car seats checked to ensure they are properly installed. So, thank you for posting this. :hug99:

[Jayne]

Great Post Colleen. We didn't have Latch...Alyssa's car seat stayed just fine because her seatbelt did it's job!

[Barb]

I can't bring myself to watch either. But there's some good info here, thanks guys!

[Michele]

That was so sad...that song just kills me. I forwarded it on to one of my friends, our other friend has her 3 year old (who is only 30 pounds) in a booster seat w/a seat bealt (not 5 point) and is constantly harping on us to switch our kids. I paid extra for the carseat that is safe to 65 pounds...and I'm getting my money's worth...if she starts bitching at me again, I'm sending her this link...

[Colleen]

I am not going to watch the video b/c I just can't handle stuff like that right now. Too high on the hormones, I guess. HOWEVER, I am going to use this to prompt me to go and get my car seats checked to ensure they are properly installed. So, thank you for posting this. :hug99:

I watched that video and I think the combination of the song and images haunted me the most. If it gets people to go out and check that their car seats are properly installed, then I am all for that!

Jeff and I actually had a 1/2 hour conversation about it Sunday night after I told him about the video clip.

[Silke]

I am really sad for the parents but, I agree, the carseat was not at fault. Anybody sitting there with or without carseat would have been thrown from the vehicle since the seatbelt failed. The seatbelt failure is what scares me. You trust in the belt saving your life possible, but there is no way to know it for sure.

[Michele]

Sorry if I went off on a bit of a tangent, and maybe it wasn't related directly to this thread...but to whomever it concerns....

I did read the whole thread and I do have the facts...the FACT is:

"A convertible or front-facing seat with a 5-point harness is the safest option for children from 30-40 pounds who are not too tall for their front-facing carseat." (taken from the site Colleen posted).

I do agree that the cause of this little boy's death was the seatbelt failure, and not b/c he was in a booster seat, however, the video does show what could happen to a six year old with just a lap belt on...that's what struck me. In just a booster seat a kid can move the shoulder belt, so in essence they are only protected by the lap belt, just like in that footage. That's why I'm keeping my kids in 5-point harnesses as long as possible...that's why I bought the carseat I did.

[Nichole]

That's why I'm keeping my kids in 5-point harnesses as long as possible...that's why I bought the carseat I did.

Me too, Michele. :nod:

[Girlo]

Man, Alex is 31lbs.....we have him in a 5-pt harness seat....with LATCH....with the seatbelt anchoring it in the back.....with the rear tether. :nod: This mother's loss is my worst nightmare. :(

[Karri]

I did not watch the video and I don't plan on it...I'd just end up bawling, i am sure. I read the website and it was heart wrenching enough.

Colleen....thank you for that well written post. You certainly know your sh*t :nod:
I am very anal about car seat safety. Aidan's still in a 5pt harness. However, he's also in a belt-positioning booster when he's in my mom's car or when he carpools to the library. And he knows the rules about moving the seatbelt. THE CAR WILL STOP. IMMEDIATELY. Period. He takes it very seriously.

I do agree with you about built in seats w/ 5pt harnesses. There has got to be a way that we can contact automakers and get them to think about doing this, no?

[Melissa]

Karri, I think the problem with the built in 5 point harness vs. car seat is that if an accident happens, the car seat can be cut right out of the car and the child can be transported without further damaging the neck and back.

I think that the automotive industry needs to look at the seatbelt failure rate more than anything.

[sheila]

My MOMS Club email blasted everyone with the link to the video. I shot Colleen's info back to the list, and 3 people have already thanked me for sending that on.

[AmyP]

I wanted to report back that I looked again at my truck's manual and I read it wrong (after searching for LATCH hooks where they weren't). In my truck (F-150 SuperCab), the ONLY seat in the back with the lower LATCH anchors is the middle seat. So, we had that part right.

I, however, had the upper tether installed incorrectly. I did it according to the carseat manufacturer's instructions without checking my truck's manual. When I looked at the truck's manual, I corrected my installation of the upper tether. Just in case anyone installs a car seat in an F-150 SuperCab (the kind with the small backseat), you are supposed to feed the tether through the loop directly behind the child seat and hook the strap onto the loop behind the next seat in either direction. It's much tighter that way and I feel like she's much safer now. BTW, I say loops because they just have fabric loops, not your usual upper hook.

So, all is well, and I thank Hilary for sharing the video or I wouldn't have been prompted to check my carseat installation.

[Hilary]

So, I decided to show this to my friend tonight because her kids are never buckled and I think it got to her. I'm so glad. By Wyoming standards all of her kids, even her 11 year old, should be in a booster because they aren't 80 lbs, but at least hopefully her 4 year old will be in a carseat now. She started bawling at the end because her daughter has the same exact birthday as that little boy.

[AmyP]

Great job, Hilary! I really hope your friend takes it seriously. I am sure you and your friend would be devastated if something happened to one of the kids because they weren't properly restrained.

My SIL e-mailed it to me and I replied back with the correct information. I'd just hate if something happened to one of my nieces because they were in a carseat with LATCH when they're over 40 lbs.

[Mary DK]

When I saw the video I about died thinking the what if's b/c this hits close to home... see, a couple of weeks ago we moved Eliot to the 3rd row of our mini-van, we were gonna go see Grandpa and as always I let him sit in the front & I move to one of the back seats. Eliot's carseat is usually in the 2nd row/driver side seat so I thought it would be easier for me to move him back & for me to take that seat.

We drove to Grandpa's house (about an hour away w/no traffic), we went in his house and about an hour later we got back in the car to go to lunch. That's when I put the sit belt on and when I pulled it to tighten it over my chest, it came unlatched, I thought that maybe I hadn't clicked it right so I did it again only to find out that it came unlatched again. I moved to the 3rd row with Eliot where he's remained since we haven't replaced the seatbelt hook yet. We do use the seatbelt & top teether on both Eliot & Ian's carseat.

When I watched this video, all I could think was... what if I hadn't moved Eliot back? What if we had been in an accident and we didn't know the seatbelt was not gonna hold his carseat? I'm bawling right now just thinking about it!! :bawl:

Off course the good thing is that we did find out and we'll be taking the car to the dealership to get it check & replaced. I'm wondering if there is a test they can perform to check all seatbelts in the car? I guess it doesn't hurt to ask.

Anyway... sorry I babbled this long.

Hilary... thanks for starting this thread.

Collen... thanks for all the information.

[Jayne]

I am so glad you found the seat belt defective when you did :hug99: I really hope if nothing else people realize the importance of a car seat (the right one for their child) and seat belts. We can't always prevent an accident but we can take the best possible measures to be sure our children are in the safest position. :hug99:

[Melissa]

Mary that is so scary!!!! I'm so glad you found out when you did!

[Mary DK]

Thank you Jayne & Melissa. I'm also glad we found out this way :nod:

[Colleen]

Mary, I'm so glad you caught that! Again, I think the scariest thing about that whole accident scenario in that video is that the seatbelt failed. (And in Mary's case, isn't working.) You depend on them to perform correctly. All I can say is Wow and I'm again so glad that you caught it, Mary! :bighug:

[Lyndee]

I actually haven't watched the video but I have been researching car seats like mad for the last few days.

Lauryn "outgrew" her Marathon a few months ago. She is still within the height and weight limit (she's about 45 inches and 48.5 lbs) but the crotch strap, which has gotten so tight, was really hurting her. Unfortunately, it doesn't adjust. So I got her a Compass belt-positioning seat. She fits well and is mature enough to understand to keep the belt on her shoulders. However, I have been uneasy about this since day one, and I constantly check to make sure she is sitting properly.

We looked at the Cosco Apex 65 this weekend. Lauryn is too tall for the harness. Her shoulders are right on the very top slots for the harness. Sure we can buy it, but she'll outgrow it in a few months.

I really would prefer a harness at this point. Is the Regent my only option?

TIA!