I am :banghead: right now with Jackson (3.5 yrs), because the not listening and defiance is in full force. It is a HUGE test of my patience and I feel like I'm constantly struggling to find the best way to parent "around" it.

How do you cope? What tactic(s) have you found to deal with this?

Help, please! :help:

:help: You have totally described Lindsey, who is also 3.5. I swear my daughter has been replaced with the devil.

I drink :drink:

(I'm only half joking)

Clare, that's how I cope, too. (just polishing off the wine bottle as matter of fact) :lol: It was one of those days.

Brook, I'm sorry to hear that you can relate. It sucks, huh? :hug99:

No tips? Anyone? Pleeeeease? :scan: :lol:

I honestly don't have any tips. Sam's into full blown defiance at the moment, and he's a year younger then Jackson! :eek: I just repeat myself over and over and over and over but nothing seems to get through :dunno:

I put them to bed :blush1: Mine typically are VERY tired when they get to the defiant I-don't-care-what-you-tell-me-to-do stage :nod: And, even if they're not, going to their room makes them mellow a bit.

Nichole I'm right there with ya!.. and Brookelyn is only 2.5! She's usually so well behaved and we can take her anywhere, but now that I'm home a bit more (only working PT now) she's taken a turn for the worse! lol I tell her to go to 'the naughty seat' and if she's not in devil mode then it works well, but when she's in that mode she says 'fine' and goes and sits there herself and smiles about it.. or she flat out says no and throws a fit when I do put her there.. it's driving me insane too!!!!
Maybe I should join Clare in drinking it away!! lol j/k!

I am with Shanna. I put her to bed. Alyssa has really started to come out of this stage but I find that when she is at her worst it is because she is really tired and so I will either have her take a nap or have her go to her room for some quiet time. It really seems to work :dunno:

Claira is almost 3.5 and I have found that having a routine helps to control her behavior. I have an exact routine for bedtime, so she is not too overtired during the day and I am consistent with discipline so she will not try to challenge me (I use time-outs and removal of toys) and she knows what behavior is acceptable. I am by no means perfect with any of this but I find it helps if they know what to expect and they have boundaries. It is hard to write in detail all that I do, but good-luck. :aok:

Nichole, I hear you!!! Alex has her moments. I find that she does it most when she doesn't get enough mommy one-on-one time, when she is tired or when she is hungry.

I usually try to cuddle and a tell a story to see if that works for the 'tude...if not, then I offer a snack and milk. If neither or those work then I will lay down with her and cuddle and try to have quiet time. She hasn't napped in 1.5 years so she doesn't sleep just rests. But I can only do the latter when William is napping or when DH is home.

Something else I just started is having a 'trigger' word. I say "listen" then stop to make sure she is listening then tell her what I want to tell her. It's working...no 100% but better than before.

:bighug: And have a drink on me!

I drink :drink:

(I'm only half joking)I posted that same answer and lost my post. Must have been too drunk. :shuffle:

I don't have much advice since I'm there x2. Aidan is worse than Colin, or maybe it seems worse because Aidan uses words and logic to defy us now too, while Colin's defiance is still more bevarioral. And Aidan's rants are :screwy: because he doesn't always get what he's talking about but you can't tell him that. Every time we do something mildly offensive now he screams "you're guilty!" We have no idea where he picked that up from and he doesn't always use it in the right context. Drives me batty!

Just do what I do: remind yourself over and over that this too will pass!

I have two of mine doing this at the same time! Aiden (4 next week) and Riley at 2.7yrs.. I will tell them to do things and they blankly stare at me until I physcially get up and make them do it. They like to push me until I go crazy! I swear that is their motive! :lol:

I find saying to them. "Ok if you don't want to do ABC then you won't get to watch the wiggles tomorrow" Or "you won't get to eat (insert favourite food) for afternoon tea" etc.. it tends to get there attention but does not STOP it from happening again.

I am with you on the frustration, it kills me too :hug99:

I find saying to them. "Ok if you don't want to do ABC then you won't get to watch the wiggles tomorrow" Or "you won't get to eat (insert favourite food) for afternoon tea" etc.. it tends to get there attention but does not STOP it from happening again.Do you follow through with it?

I am trying not to make threats that I can't keep, and I find it especially hard when Aidan gets in trouble for something and it ends up hurting Colin.

I do follow through when they continue not to listen, but alot of the time me using that threat get's them moving to do what I asked of them.

I also struggle with the discipline that effects the other child..(hence why I don't tend to take toys off them etc because it ends up punishing the other child) but if I use a threat like "not watching a certain movie etc" then when it comes on the one that didn't obey goes to play in his room while the other watches. It's a nightmare to go through and listen to the begging from the roomed child, but I am finding after doing it a few times they learned that I meant business so when I do threaten it, I tend to get the response I am looking for.

Nichole - can you pinpoint/find out when the defiance and not listening occurs?
Like Lissa said, I found that Shoham is mostly like that when she is either hungry, tired or overstimulated.
Also, bear in mind that Jackson started DC not long ago. The daily schedule at DC really really wears them off/down. They have to be "good kids" at DC the whole day (it's part of peer pressure or what they feel is "expected" of them) and then they just let go in the afternoon.
Does he still nap (DC/when he gets home)?
Try to offer him a snack right when he comes home (they tend to be HUNGRY as hell here). Also, try to give each some mommy time - as part of your daily schedule. So he knows. And since I am talking about schedule - do you have a regular schedule you follow thru with them after they come home? Routine helps them a lot and reassures them.
What do I do with Shoham when she has her moments? Hmmm.... first of all I try to head off the triggers (hunger etc).
Talk to him about how he is feeling. "I can see you are frustrated/tired/something happened..." I tell her that behavior X is unacceptable, that her feelings are OK but not her actions. And often they REALLY REALLY need a hug and kiss to calm down.
another thing is, again like the others said, natural consequences of his actions. "If you don;t listen now, how will you be able to ___ (insert listen to a story, watch TV...)" And give him a choice. You can either do A or B now.

Most of all .... remember you are NOT alone. It is NOT because of something YOU do wrong. It is a phase. I hope it will pass (we are not there yet - I mean it hasn't passed LOL). I take time outs myself these days when it is too much to handle- and they don't like that.
Hang in there!

Addison has become a lot worse with this in the past couple of months. The good thing is that she's old enough that I can talk to her rationally about why she needs to listen to me. And sometimes that does work.

And like others have said, I find the times that nothing really works are when she's really tired. At times like that, sometimes I will hold her for a minute and give her a hug, which kind of resets everything.

And then there are times like yesterday. We went to the playground and then fed the ducks. She wanted to go back to the playground after, but our parking ticket was going to expire so we had to leave.
She said, "I'm not leaving. I'm STAYING HERE."
I said, "We have to go get our car before we get in trouble by the police officer."
She said, "NO. I'm staying here all night."
So we started walking to the car. She followed, way behind us. Then she stopped.
I told her that if she didn't come with us, she wouldn't get the cupcake that we'd just bought at the grocery.
She didn't come with me right away so she didn't get a cupcake.

Too bad... listen to me next time! When Aubrey got her cupcake, I reminded Addison why she didn't get one and that she needs to listen when I tell her to do something because there's a reason for it. blah blah blah.

When Aden gets really bad putting him in his room to calm down seems to help. He will lay in his bed and scream and cry for a little while and eventually he will stop and calm down and look at books and we will go up and ask him if he is ready to come down and behave now. Sometimes he says yes and sometimes he says no, which is fine w/me, because I do not want him to come down until he can behave and he usually always does :nod:

Hang in there, sister :hug99: After all, you only have one more to go through this with ;)

Do you follow through with it?

I am trying not to make threats that I can't keep, and I find it especially hard when Aidan gets in trouble for something and it ends up hurting Colin.

With that situation give Colin what it you are taking away from Aidan. If it's a show or a special snack Aidan needs to see what he is actually missing.
Maybe have him sit in his room while Colin watches something.
It's not easy and Aidan may be very angry but he will see the consequences right there. :dunno:

Dylan gets mouthy once in a while. I look at him and say "excuse me??" He'll usually repeat himself and I'll remind him that we don't talk like that.
If he is in full freak out mode it's hard not to act the same way.
He gets pissed when I tell him to throw his fit and come to me when he is done.

With that situation give Colin what it you are taking away from Aidan. If it's a show or a special snack Aidan needs to see what he is actually missing.
Maybe have him sit in his room while Colin watches something.
It's not easy and Aidan may be very angry but he will see the consequences right there. :dunno:
That situation is easy. What is hard is when I want to use doing something like not going to the park or to Nana's house because those are things that he cares more about. Or even playing hockey...but that is WITH Colin. Cols can't play as easily on his own so it's hard for me to say that I'm taking away his hockey stuff because he was bad since Colin suffers too.

Usually I find my kids are like this when they are tired, not always though. Eoin has been a stinker for months now. We have started taking him to the bathroom and talking to him. We get down on his level and make sure he is looking us in the face. It tends to work pretty well. If he is totally defiant even then he gets a time out in his bedroom on his bed. Usually he is crying because he knows he is in trouble so I shut the door. I will tell him that when he is finished crying and can apologize to mommy for not listeneing he can come out of his room. Yesterday he was just being awful. I took him to the bathroom and he asked to go sit on his bed so I let him. About 10 minutes later, he came out of his room, said sorry and did what I asked him to do. Sometimes I think he just needs some decompression time.

I am there with you....

Maggie is definitely in the "NO" stage. Usually I warn her if she doesn't do what I'm asking by the time I get to 3 there will be a consequence (time out, no fruit after dinner, no books, etc). I then count 1-2-3 and if she's not doing whatever then she gets the consequence. I'm not sure it's working though because she'll usually just start getting upset and crying by #2 and still not do the task. :rolleyes:

This morning it was brushing her teeth. She came in the bathroom with me and then firmly said "I'm not brushing my teeth." I told her she had to and still it was no, and so we counted. When I got to two she was on her stepstool in front of the sink then wouldn't hold her toothbrush. Then she held her brush but wouldn't brush her teeth... sigh. Finally I wrestled the brush from her hand and brushed her teeth, which REALLY made her upset. When we stopped the wanted me to pick her up and hug her. :dunno: I HATE making her upset but I'm not sure what else to do.

So here is an example of defiance in language that I encounter. This happened about 10 minutes ago.

I told Aidan he could not have strawberries until I helped him, and I was on the phone with work. He said okay. We're at my mom's house so I want to be extra careful about messes and such. Well, I look up from my call and he has out the strawberries and grapes - 2 types.

Me: "Aidan! I told you not to get out that food until I helped you. Why did you not listen to what I said?"
Aidan: "But Mommy. I needed to do make my fruit salad by myself so that I could be proud of myself. And I am!"

Well crap. I hear his point and all that, but it's still definance. So then I struggle with finding the right words and tone to both tell him to listen but also to not suppress his self-independence and pride. :disbelief

Are Aidan and Tyrus related?! :lol:

Alyssa: "And you should be proud of yourself for doing things, but when I specifically asked you to stop and wait, there was a reason for it (insert reason here, not making a mess at Nana's house, or Nana wanted the strawberries for a recipe, etc.) So you need to listen to me when I ask you to wait."

:dunno: That's the way it would go around here, except Caroline wouldn't be that logical/emotive about it, she'd just be yelling "BUT I WANT TO DO IT!"

Me: "Aidan! I told you not to get out that food until I helped you. Why did you not listen to what I said?"
Aidan: "But Mommy. I needed to do make my fruit salad by myself so that I could be proud of myself. And I am!"

Thanks for the tips and suggestions, everyone.

It may be partly because he's tired, but it's not for lack of offering sleep opportunities. :lol: I think he's having a lot of bad dreams/night terrors and isn't getting good rest at night. I'm not sure how to get around that. :dunno:

There is no specific trigger or way to pinpoint when he's acting out. We have always had a clear routine here and that hasn't changed. I think starting daycare may be playing a small role in it, but I think a lot of it is just the age and trying to test boundaries, you know?

My current tactic is to give the 1-2-3 warnings and then he gets timeout on #3 (from 1-2-3 Magic). We've also had talks about listening and how to be a good listener as well as things/behaviors that are not good listening. I guess it's just a matter of repetition and reiteration at this point. It just gets so wearing by the end of the day, you know?

Drat all of you for not having a magic bullet cure! :angrywife :lol:

Alyssa,
It sucks when they start learning to try to reason/manipulate their way out of trouble. I think in that situation I would say, "I would be glad to let you make it on your own, but you still have to wait until I give you permission and I will not do that until I am off the phone". I have a hard time letting my kids do things for themselves in general because I would rather prevent a mess than clean one up.

I would make it clear that even though he is being independant, he's also disobeying you. Let him know that he can listen to your words and compromise to get more of what he wants while also staying within the rules.

I would closely supervise and let him make the salad once you are off the phone.

It's hard to know the right thing to do that will work. I think a lot of it is trial and error and figuring out what works for each child and parent.

I agree that if they are tired, there is no use in trying, put them to bed. I finally figured that out as well after becoming very frustrated.

Nichole,
I very much understand feeling worn down by the constant reminders and corrections. I think the most you can do it try to take a mini break (just a minute alone) and some deep breaths (a few sips of wine never hurt :) )

It's hard work and only human to feel exasperated at times, especially when they don't give you a break.

:lol: Nichole.. the person who does have the magic bullet cure would be the richest person on the planet :nod:

No kidding, eh Deb? :lol:

Thanks, Jen. It was just a really looooong day yesterday, mostly because we all had a rough night of sleep the night before. I don't operate on many cylinders when I'm tired and my patience is one of the first cylinders to go out. :lol:

:lol: Yeah, let me know when someone invents that magic bullet. I will be among the first buyers! :lol: