Looking for support and maybe suggestions?

[Katrina]

Someone please help a new mommy going crazy!

Background: Zack is 2 months old and started sleeping pretty well at night on his own at a few weeks old. He gets put in his crib drowsy, but awake and wakes once or twice a night for feedings. After he eats, he goes right back down, unless he is unusually gassy and then it can take a bit longer to get him comfy again. But generally, his nighttime sleep is good for his age. His first stretch is anywhere from 4-7 hours and after the first feeding of the night, it's kind of a crap shoot but he will go at least 3 hours before the next feeding. He is crashed out by 8:30pm and usually is awake to play around 7 or 8 am.
He got himself into this and I just follow along and it works fine for all of us.

The problem is his naps. He is a cat napper and up until today, was only napping on my chest. Everytime I would put him down, granted, not in his crib, he would wake up shortly after. This last 2 weeks, I have let him fall asleep with me in the morning after his morning feed and play time, and then we usually get up around 10:30 or so and get on with our day.

My pediatrician advised us to stop the habit of letting him fall asleep on me during the day, and to that end, let him cry after we put him down until he falls asleep. Not the Ferber cry till he throws up with the door closed cry, but more like the 5 in/5 out controlled crying thing. Said that the boy is tired and just needs to SLEEP.

I thought he might be too young for that but the doc advised me not so..again, citing it wasn't a behavioral learned thing (the crying used as manipulation or anything) but rather the kid needs to wear himself down and fall asleep.

I told him we'd try it but I am not sure about it anymore.

The first morning, when he showed his sleepy signs, I put him down in his crib and he slept for a blissful 3.5 hours. I thought hey, there is something to this!
Didn't get to try it that afternoon cause we were out.

The second day, he showed his sleepy signs after morning play time so I swaddled him (like I do at night) and put him in his crib. He slept for about 30 minutes..long enough for me to shower and get dressed and get coffee made..then woke up screaming. I did the in out thing for a while but gave up when it was clear it wasn't working. I fed him and let him fall asleep on my chest just to get him some sleep because he was clearly exhausted, and needed some sleep. I figured we could reset his system and then try again in the afternoon.
That afternoon was no better. He slept for about 20 minutes, and then I was in out in out for hours until he finally fell back asleep, 20 minutes before it was time for his next feeding and you guessed it, he woke up right on schedule for his feeding.

Today (day 3) wasn't any better. I admit I let him sleep with me a bit this morning, but then I put him swaddled in in crib (trying to recreate the nighttime routine) and he slept for about 20 minutes. I let him cry (more like scream) and did the in out in out thing until it was time for his next feeding..he never went back to sleep.

Next time he showed sleepy signs it was the same routine (slept for 30 minutes then screamed until his next feeding)

End result? Very crabby baby because he isn't getting much sleep at all. Granted before it was all in catnaps, but he was getting them more frequently. Now he spends most of his awake time screaming, and understandably gets exhausted. The little non screaming awake time we have is short lived, as he gets crabby with playing very easily. By the end of the day we are both in tears and exhausted and we didn't get any good mommy/baby time since he was screaming most of the day.

So basically, what I want to know is this:

How long do I keep at this before I get results? I can put up with the upset in our routine and the tears, so long as I know it is only TEMPORARY and that it will result in longer naps for him during the day. I don't want to give up too soon, but I can't take much more of this.

Should I just give up and let him have as many 20-30 minute naps as he wants? At least he is going down in his crib during the day, so I guess it's a start.

Should I just accept that he is a cat napper and just go with it (at least for now) and maybe try this whole controlled crying thing in a few weeks/months when he is older?

I don't want to give up on the controlled crying thing too soon but I am not convinced it is doing anything. And, he is so exhausted by the end of the day, tonight he fell asleep after his bath (on my chest when I was drying him) and I couldn't get him to wake up for his usual 8pm feeding. I just put him down for bed and will go in and feed him again soon, since the last feeding he has was at 6pm and he will be hungry again very soon.

Also, and this may be unrelated, but he has been spitting up a TON these last few days. He used to spit up occaisionally, but it wasn't bad. The last 2 days its been all the time, even though he was substantially burped at each feeding..and the spit up happens hours after the feedings. Is this just a normal thing for a 2 month old, or is it related to all the screaming he is doing? He just started on a vitamin supplement with iron, which seems to be messing with his stools (and tummy..stopping him up a bit) so that could be related to the spit-upy tummy as well?

Anyway...sorry this is so long and rambling. I am exhausted, in tears and feeling like a horrible mother for watching my baby scream his head off all day looking at me like "mommy I need you and you are abandoning me!"

Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

Will giving up sabatoge efforts later to get him to sleep better during the day? Will continuing in this pattern upset his nighttime routine, which up until now has been working fine?

I guess I am just looking for some thoughts and inspiration and support from experienced mothers and some help in the direction I should go with this.

Thanks in advance

[kalynnsmom]

This is speaking from my experience...Kalynn didn't get into a nap routine until she was about 3 months or so. And she pretty much set it herself.

When she was your baby's age, she really just napped when she wanted.

The "magic" number for us was 3 months. It will get better!

Sometimes, it's a matter of experimentation..finding a technique that will help with your baby..Have you read Jill's sleep thread on UB? She gives you how many naps a baby that young needs.

[harmonielyn]

Sometimes I put Madison down for a nap when shes awake. I let her cry for a bit then I go back to her and give her her pacifier. She goes right to sleep after that. But thats only if she wasnt already sleeping on my chest. If she was sleeping and I put her down, shes up for good.

Im starting to let her cry for a little while so I can at least get a few things done in the kitchen or start a load of laundry. If it were up to her she would just sit in my lap all day long.

Madison is just growing out of throwing up hours after each feeding. I didnt know what was wrong with her but she wasnt crying and she didnt have a belly ache so I figured she was fine. She did that for about 3 weeks but now she doesnt.

[Shannan]

His body hasn't gotten used to the vitamin supplements. So the natural reaction is for him to spit up. Don't give up. Aiden gets cranky and I put him down in his bassinet and he does the cry/scream thing. Try going in and out ever 15 minutes instead of 5 in/ 5 out. I did that for a week and now Aiden talks himself to sleep. It will get better. Besides, if you know he's fed and has a clean diaper, just let him fuss. He will go to sleep...put a toy or moble on and he'll start with that...Aiden has the Fisher Price Aquarium attached to his crib. I turn that on and he'll talk to it, and to the Beatrix Potter characters on his crib sheet and bumper pads.

Hang in there, it will get better.

[Katrina]

Celeste: Jill's sleep tequnique is what I have been doing and its not working. I was wondering how long it takes to take effect!

Harmonie: Thanks for your experience with the spitting up :)

gwenyvarr: I can try the 15 minutes thing instead and see if that works. I do put his mobile on, give him his pacifier..and none of it seems to have any effect on him. He goes way beyond fussing..he is in full blown screaming fits.

The problem I seem to be running into is that he will sleep that first 20 minutes, and then spend the next 2 hours screaming and never get himself back to sleep. He is then super cranky when trying to feed him and then starts to fall asleep on the boob cause he is so tired, or if I keep him up for that, he plays for maybe a few minutes but then gets super cranky again. He's like that all day and frankly, so am I. I miss my happy baby and mommy time. By the end of the day we are both so exhausted its ridiculous.
I am so stressed out that I can't sleep at the end of the day. Even though I am exhausted, I lay in bed and just cry..I am surprised it didn't wake him up!

This morning I gave in and let him take his morning nap with me in bed because I was so exhausted and we both got 2 hours of sleep.

I am just so frustrated with it.

[Karri]

I am not an advocate of CIO, but I respect your decision. However, he is too young to be CIO. It isnt reccommended to try it till AFTER they are 3 mos old.

Have you tried letting him nap in a swing?? I know you probably want him in his bed, but honestly...2 months is still so young and well, I would say do what you can to get him to sleep.

[Katrina]

See that's the thing..I am not sure I am totally for CIO either..even in this modified form, because of how it's (not) working AND beside just not working, things are getting worse...

Instead of many cat naps now, he gets just a few and spend so much time screaming, we don't get any happy play time. I miss my happy baby boy. I miss playing with him for hours. I miss my own sanity....this whole thing is making me nuts... I have barely been able to get both of us to stop crying all day.... it's miserable for both of us.

I am so ready to say screw it and just let him cat nap through the day. At the very least, I can put him down in his crib, since he doesn't seem to sleep very long ANYWHERE, at least if he is in his crib it's a start.
And then try something (not necessarily this modified CIO) again in a few weeks.

As for the swing, Karri, he is just recently starting to actually fall asleep in it. He will only sleep for 20 minutes or so at a time, but its better than in my arms, right?

I just don't know what to do....

I know you have talked about using the No Cry Sleep Method... can you share what that is about? Maybe I can try that...

And overall, is 2 months just too early to try to get a napping schedule set????

[SarahK]

I highly suggesting getting a copy of the "No Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley. :nod: Lots of good info in the book.

Honestly, it sounds to be as though you're not at all comfortable with CIO. If you're not comfortable with it, I don't think you should be doing it. He is YOUR baby--do what YOU think is right.

Katie is a great sleeper at night, but during the day she'll catnap on the couch or take good long snoozes in my arms. If I put her in her crib or in her basket, she won't sleep one wink. So, what do I do? I hold her in my arms and let her get in those long snoozes.

My theory is this--I'm a SAHM and my job is to take care of my baby...and Katie is my only child. I have nothing better to do than snuggle her in my arms, so why not let her snooze in my lap? This time in our lives will pass too quickly...

[Leslie]

I think he's too little to CIO. And he may not weigh enough yet to sleep in the swing. We tried that when Ian was little and he was so light that even on the low setting, that swing went too fast. Ian used to sleep in the vibrating chair. In those first few months, I just tried to get him to nap anywhere I could. I didn't try CIO methods until Ian was 7 months. But man it works really well for older babies. At least it did for mine. At 16 months Ian got the stomach flu which caused his sleep schedule to get messed up. After he got better, we used the Ferber method. Two nights later he was back to sleeping all night like an angel. I'll admit CIO is soooo tough, but when they're older, it could be the answer.

[Katrina]

Thank you ladies! This is exactly the kind of feedback I am looking for. Please, keep it coming..no holds barred!
I realize the sleep issues are a very hotly debated issue, so I want to know people's opinions of what has worked and what hasn;t worked and why you think it hasn't...

I am leaning towards saying screw it to the crying it out of any sort (controlled crying, in/out, pick up/put down) at least for now.

I REALLY miss my happy baby, and I had that before I started trying to do this.
Maybe later it will work, but I am thinking that right now, I need to just go with the flow and follow his lead. If that means many 30 minute naps all day.. then fine...he was happy before doing that...and I was much happier...

BTW, I did put in a call to the pediatricians office, asking for guidance and clarification... he wasn't in the office today so I should hear back tomorrow. I am interested to hear what he has to say since he was so insistent that letting him cry would wipe him out and he would eventually fall asleep.. Hrmm.

[Stacy]

My son is almost 2 years old and there are days I still snuggle him for his nap. He always sleeps longer and more peaceful when I am right beside him.

If you don't feel comfortable with what your dr. suggested than mention that. You have tried what he said and it's not working for you.
We got alot of flack for Dylan sleeping with us a lot but it worked for us.

I am not a fan of CIO even at this age. At 2 months old we hardly let him fuss.

I hope things work out soon.

[Katrina]

Stacy,
Thank you for your input. I really love that morning nap/snuggle time too (and not just because it means *I* get a little more sleep!)

But I definitely miss my happy baby and if he is happy with lots of catnaps then fine... I just can't bear to hear/see him screaming the way he has been... it's just not worth it to me.

I guess I was/am just afraid that I am not giving it enough time and that people (ie, the pedi, etc) will look down on me or something for not following his guidance or that any problems in the future, no matter how far unrelated to napping, he (and others who think I should do this) will be like "I told you so..if you had just listened..."

But really...this isn't working...and I WANT to snuggle him and make it better for him.. I want to make his cries stop no matter what causes them. I can hardly bear the fact that *I* am causing them AND not doing anything about it.

[sheila]

I guess I was/am just afraid that I am not giving it enough time and that people (ie, the pedi, etc) will look down on me or something for not following his guidance or that any problems in the future, no matter how far unrelated to napping, he (and others who think I should do this) will be like "I told you so..if you had just listened..."

IMO.... $crew 'em. :lol: Seriously, I think that most people who would try to blame you would find a way to make it your fault no matter what. The only difference is that if/when you are doing what you believe to be right, its easier to let it roll off your back.

[MizLacey]

My doc put it this way: "If you and the baby have a system that works for you, don't fret over what the so-called experts say. Don't change it until it no longer works. You are the Mom and the only thing that comes out of trying to force a change in sleep habits for an infant is a fussy baby and a very tired mommy who can't be effective!"

You're obviously not too comfy with CIO. Why put yourself through the stress?

[~Tara~]

Yes I agree its not worth the stress. You need to get a routine that YOU are comfortable with. I was never comfortable with CIO either but I wanted a happy baby and a nap routine.

What worked for us was following the techniques by Tracy Hogg in the her Book the Baby Whisperer. For us it was the perfect solution - kinda in the middle of road between CIO and constant Soothing. You can go to the website www.babywhisperer.com (http://www.babywhisperer.com) for additional information. This book and website were my lifesavers during the first 4 months when I had an absolute monster (AKA CRABAGAIL!) all the time. My copy of the book is dog eared and highlighted like crazy...lol.

Even still when Abby is having the rare bad night and cant get to sleep or wakes up - I use her techniques of comforting until they are calm and then putting her back in her crib to fall asleep.

[Katrina]

Very well said!

I guess my other issue is that while I know it's true that you can't spoil a baby, I am afraid of him developing bad habits, ie, getting used to sleeping his (long) morning nap in bed with me. RIght now it works for us, and we both get some sleep, but I am afraid it will condition him to need it later. Or that not enforcing napping habits now will make for a bad napper later. Or that by perpetuating these daytime habits, we are slowly going to sabotoge the nighttime (good) habits.

But then I go back to the 'he's only 2 months old' thing... and so far, has been a happy, very easily adjusted baby (the first night in his crib went very smoothly)
Some days he naps better than others....maybe he just requires less sleep on some days than he does on others?

I think I am going to just let it go. Watch him for sleepy signs and put him down in his crib for a nap when they happen, but if he wakes up after 20-30 minutes so be it..that's all the sleep he needs right then.. I guess..right?
Like yesterday, he took a 2 hour morning nap with me and seemed fine afterwards. Today, he slept for about 2 hours, woke up slightly wanting to suck/snack, then went right back to sleep for another 1.5 hours. About an hour after that, He started to get sleepy again and is now partially dozing in his swing.

I think my biggest thing is that is is ONLY 2 months old. He figured out his nighttime sleeping on his own...why should I fight him on his daytime sleeping?

Thank you all for your thoughts..please, keep them coming!

[kalynnsmom]

Katrina, I agree, I think that having a set schedule is too early right now. My DD slept whenever she wanted to, whether it be 20 min to one hour, to whenever. I just let her sleep. I didn't like the CIO method, so I picked her up. I firmly firmly believe you cannot spoil a NB. So, I say screw it! You need to do what makes your baby happy, not what other people want you to do.

I had alot of people tell me that I"m spoiling my baby, because I picked her up when she wanted to be held, she slept with me if that was the only way to get her to sleep, etc etc. But you know what? Kalynn is 18 months old, she sleeps through the night, since she was about 3 months or so. She started napping on her schedule, which was 2 3 hour naps. , I've NEVER had a problem when she got older.

And another thing, it's ok to hold them. Kalynn hardly wants us to hold her anymore :( She's such a big girl, she thinks! :lol:

[Karri]

I would love to give you some insight, but honestly, I didnt read the newborn portion of The No Cry Sleep Solution (I bought it when Aidan was 16 mos old and used it them). But it worked for us at that time. I still highly reccommend the book, though.

The first book I bought was The Baby Whisperer. While I really did not agree w/ her, there are some parts of the book that I was able to apply (mainly the sleep/wake/eat patterns).

I find that when it comes to non-medical advice, pediatricians will advise whatever it is worked for them or they believe in. It doesnt mean they are right or that it will necessarily work for your child. You have to do whatever works for you at that moment.

He is just so young yet and I honestly didnt see any sort of nap pattern w/ Aidan at that age. At two months, every time I laid him down, he would wake up. So what did I do? Let him sleep with me, on me, and in the bjorn while I got stuff done (laundry, cooking, cleaning, computer time). And later on....around 3-4 months, he started his own nap routine.....2 nice long 3 hour naps and one 20 min catnap in the late afternoon.

[miacat]

I am an advocate of CIO, but even I think your baby is too young. We had the same napping problem with my son, and really at this age, it is more important that they and you get the rest, then where they get it. My son slept in his carseat for naps, bedtime, whenever. He also would wake up from naps--like clockwork--every 30 minutes. He just took a whole bunch of 30 minutes naps (and came no where close to the average amount of sleep for his age). Our pediatrician said, "Whatever works." Try the swing, bouncy seat, or let your baby nap with you if you are both getting rest. We did the CIO between 5-6 months and it worked great then if you need/want to try it again at some point.

[cimberdog]

OK, I have not read the other responses because I wanted to post my suggestions before I forgot them!


Consider using Dr. Browns bottles. They are excellent for gassy babies and really help with the spit up. We had a spitty baby until he was aorund 6 months old, and without the Dr. Browns bottles it was so much worse.
Add Mylicon to the bottles to help with gas. If that doesn't work, try Gripe Water, which you can get online at Babycenter.com
Consider changing your routine during the day. I had this exact same problem with Sam, and although time will help (as he gets older), the first thing I did is change our routine to EAT-ACTIVITY-SLEEP-ME TIME (EASY technique). By offering lots of stimulation after he ate, to really wear him out, then I could swaddle Sam, give him the paci and put him down for a nap. I also used the Mama Bear which made heartbeat sounds in his vrib. That alone (the activity to wear him out) REALLY made a difference.
Consider holding him closer to you as you do things around the house, so he gets more mom time. Wear hima round in a sling or Baby Bjorn as you wash bottles, do laundry, vacuum, etc. Make sure it's when he's awake though:)
Offer lots of different stimulation. We had the activity gym, Baby Mozart, Tummy Time, Singing, out and about to the mall, etc.
Use CIO consistently. You have to choose a technique you are comfortable doing. I personally ahd days where I would let Sam go for 45 minutes because he would NOT go to sleep. Of course I would check on him, and sooth over that time, to prevent him from getting overly worked up. But after we really used swaddling a lot, it helped a great deal. I used the techniques in Happiest Baby on the Block.

[Katrina]

You guys are awesome!!

I have The Baby Whisperer and I do agree with a lot of it. I follow the Eat, Activity, Sleep pattern, execpt for his evening feed..then the only 'activity' he gets after his last feed is to be swaddled :)

It makes me feel a lot better to hear that your babies tend to sort their own schedules out when it comes to napping. It helps me feel vindicated that I thought he was a little too young to be establishing such a rigid structure.

Cimberdog: Just fyi..I am breastfeeding so we don't use bottles, but we do use the mylicon drops.. I am not entirely convinced it works all the time, but hey...I figure the spit up is related to his body getting used to the vitamins, since I can tell they are messing up his bowels, it makes sense that it affects his tummy too.

[~Tara~]

Very well said!

I guess my other issue is that while I know it's true that you can't spoil a baby, I am afraid of him developing bad habits, ie, getting used to sleeping his (long) morning nap in bed with me. RIght now it works for us, and we both get some sleep, but I am afraid it will condition him to need it later. Or that not enforcing napping habits now will make for a bad napper later. Or that by perpetuating these daytime habits, we are slowly going to sabotoge the nighttime (good) habits.


WOW - your post totally brought me back to MY thoughts the first few months too. I felt like I had to do everything by the book (note my previous post about The Baby Whisperer book being my bible..heh) and I got so stressed out when I felt that I had do something that Tracy didn't advocate (rocking her too long...letting her sleep on me..heh).

These first few months are so overwhelming as a new mom so i wanted to let you know that #1 You are doing a GREAT job!!!! #2 Relax and enjoy this time as much as you can. (I know this will sound hokey - but MAN I wish my toddler would sit still long enough for me to rock her...hahahah)

You've gotten so many great suggestions in this thread....whatever suggestions you feel comfortable trying - go ahead and try them. Don't feel like you have to make a decision and be set that way forever. Parenting is about trying different things at different times. You will feel more confident about your decisions as time passes ( I swore that I would never feel comfortable with going with my "gut" - thankfully now I do. Of course i still read books and stuff online - and incorporate that into my style)

And you are absolutely right - he is only two months old. Abby was a schedule baby (still is even as a toddler) so she loved the nap schedule from the beginning basically - some kids are NOT daytime nappers (this is where I disagree with the baby whisperer) ever, some not as newborns.

[Katrina]

Thank you all again for your support, suggestions and thoughts.

I finally talked with the pediatrician (we played phone tag for a week) and he said that if you are going to change sleep patterns, the change shows in a few days, and if Zack was getting more wound up, instead of winding down, then it clearly wasn't working for him right now and to give him a break from it. Which, by that point, I had already decided.
So this week I decided to put him down in his crib for naps, but when he woke up, so be it..that was his nap. Well, after 40 minutes asleep, he would only be up for about 30 minutes and was really crabby...hardly any happy baby time in there.
After reading through a ton of the posts on the Baby Whisperer web site, I was starting to implement the pick up/put down thing yesterday at his afternoon nap, and it didn't seem to work too well and I didn't have the resolve or conviction that it was going to, so I went ahead and comforted him rocking in the glider until he was calml and asleep (took about 40 minutes, though) and then put him back down for another 30 or so.

Today, I decided that he needs his sleep, and no matter how he gets it, its ok for now so long as he sleeps. So if that means after the first 40 minute stretch, he needs to finish his nap ON me, well then so be it. He needs his sleep and *I* need him to have his sleep or else I am left with a cranky, crabby baby all day.

This morning that's what we did and he ended up getting a total of about 2 hours sleep. He napped for a bit in the car to and from my appointment this afternoon and then he is down again now for hopefully a longer stretch. If he wakes after 40 minutes, then I will try to get him back down, but if it's clear he won't fall back asleep on his own in the crib, then I'll snuggle him against me and let him finish his nap there.
It's a solution that I feel comfortable with because it gets him to fall asleep in his crib, gets a nap routine implemented, and hopefully he will lengthen the naps on his own. But in the meantime, I get my happy baby back and I get some valuable snuggle time :)

I had a really good discussion with my husband about this last night and between what I have read here and what we talked about, I feel best with this solution, at least for now. Ok, so he may be sleeping on me some, but at least he is learning the skills he needs to go to sleep on his own and I don't feel so guilty or crabby for having him cry all the time.

Maybe when he gets older, he will sort this stuff out on his own, but for now, I feel pretty ok with helping him get there :)

Thank you again, everyone. You have no idea how much it means to read all this stuff. You gals are great!